a painful path and spiritual friends

[satyan]

Yes Etherfish i do agree with that.  Each of us have a purpose and it is up to us to find that purpose and serve it.

[Alvin Chan]

Thanks satyan. Your suggestions remind me of many things. I was once a dedicated Christian, when the concept, the form of "God" was much clearer then. For many years, the concept of god disappeared for me. In recent years, I have a concept of god again, but in a much vaguer way: in Chinese it's Tao, it's the rules and truth of the universe; not someone who thinks and plans like us.

I seldom think of this when I am depressed, so I have to try if it would help. But it would be more difficult for me than for those who have a clearer form of god. So sometimes I envy much about those who have a form for their god. I envy those Christians. But it doesn't mean I can be a Christian again. Well, not in the usual sense. Why?

Imagine you and your friends are being locked in an airtight room with walls of 5cm thick stainless. All guys are sleeping, without knowing that all of you will die very soon. Suddenly you wake up, and discover that you will die soon. You are full of fear and despair, simply because you are awake! So you will probably envy those who are still asleep. But you will not be able to fall into sleep again (until the last few minutes!).


Sadly, I still can't find a purpose. Maybe that's why I get lost. I had some goals and purposes before. But now I don't think they are meaningful. I think about going to the poor cities of Mainland China and teach the poor kids. That's very meaningful. But I don't think I can overcome the loneliness there. I will get crazy from that.  

May be, as my inner silence grow, it will become my "god"? A god which gets along with, or is the same as, Tao? A god which will inspire me of my true purpose?

I am waiting for my prayer again, in the form of samyama. But until the inner silence manifests (if it will?), I have to face many hurdles, fears and despair. God is very far away from me now.

[Richard]

HI Alvin
You can never be far from god nor can god ever be far from you we are all one. have a look at lesson 254 and remember the one is IN the many and the many are IN the one

http://www.aypsite.com/plus/254.html

Blessings

RICHARD

[Jim and His Karma]

Meditation lowers the metabolism and is introspective. Depressives need to speed up and get out of their heads.

quote:Originally posted by riptiz

Dear Jim,
The reason why meditation is believed to make depression worse IMHO is the fact that the purification effects are greater leading to a greater amount of cleansing in a short time
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Chan

Thanks, Jim and David. In fact I'm doing quite a lot of asana (about 1 hour a day, but sometimes up to 2.5 hour) And yes, the vinyasa type is my favourite. It helps me when I am feeling weak. The only problem is that when I'm deeply depressed, I don't want to do anything (even if I know they're good for me)

Ok, this is all very good. And you've thought of something I didn't. Yeah, the "barrier to entry" of vinyasa (i.e. having to expend SO much energy) is quite high when you're in the middle of a depression. Makes sense. Ok, then. May I suggest two things?

On Good Days:

The vinyasa you're doing on "good days" is super. It's clearing out your coarse blocks and stoking your energy. But if you're not in good alignment, then it won't work as efficiently....and the vinyasa teachers tend not to teach precise alignment (even the luminaries of astanga yoga tend to be a little out of whack). If you're not in alignment, the energy isn't running fully free. I'd strongly suggest you find an alignment-oriented teacher to work with a LITTLE, just to smooth out any issues and bad habits. Look for Iyengar http://www.iyengaryoga.com or anusara http://www.anusara.com teachers. It may also be helpful to get a book called "Yoga the Iyengar Way", which is a really clear explanation of the subtleties of the basic poses. The book seems simple, but I've nearly worn it out over the past 12 years. Great details...the stuff they mention just in passing is the good stuff!


On Bad Days:
Here's what you ought to shoot for as a bare minimum. Chest opening. That's what it all boils down to. the Iyengar system has developed "restorative" ways of doing asanas that are passive and require no energy, but there are ways to use blocks and bolsters (big pillows) and blankets to put your body in the position where the energy can flow, open up your chest, and that's exactly what you need. I learned it in classes, so I haven't used a book for this, but I just looked around Amazon and this looks like a great guide: "Relax and Renew" by Judith Lasater. I hope you'll buy it. You'll need to spend some money to buy a bolster and stuff (if money's a problem, email me and I'll chip in some). But if you'll get into restorative yoga, mostly chest openings, you'll have huge results, I can honestly promise you. At very very least, it's something you absolutely will be ok doing during all but the most severe depressions.

Here's the basic chest opener, to get you started (Victor, correct me if I get this wrong, ok?). Take a yoga block (never buy the plastic ones, which won't support your weight....must be made from wood) and place it on end on the floor. Lay down on your back on top of the brick with the brick just below shoulder blades (with the narrowest edge facing your neck). Try to relax everything. Breathe. Move the brick very slighly up and down every few minutes.

Actually, that's an extreme one. You may perceive it to be painful (it's not really pain...it's energy hitting blockages...and it goes away pretty fast). But it's a cure for what you've got. There are gentler versions of this in the book, where you use softer, lower things like blankets and bolsters.

If you need more tips, start a thread in the "asana" section.

[yogani99]

Hi Jim:

The deep meditation we do here is not introspective. It is the centering of attention in inner silence. It is away from introspection, not toward it. It is toward inner stability -- calming of the restless mind at its root in consciousness, especially between sessions, which is when we all need it.

Other forms of meditation may focus on the content of the thinking process, in which case I would agree with you. But in the case of deep meditation, we are going beyond the thinking process, stabilizing it from within.

As for metabolism, yes, it slows down during deep meditation. Then we get up and go be active in the world, which integrates inner silence with activity. No introspection there either. It is not a path of withdrawal into the mind. This approach is beyond introspection and any tendency for depressive thinking that may exist. It is not involved with the content thinking at all!

The guru is in you.

[Jim and His Karma]

Yogani, I very VERY respectfully disagree. I would not recommend AYP or any meditation practice for anyone severely depressed. It would be smart for readers along to take your advice rather than mine, because you're certainly the yoga authority. But I am, very unfortunately, a depression authority (wish I wasn't!). I've lost decades....

Depression is about great big coarse energy blockages. For untold centuries, asana has been the tool for resolving coarse blockages, and straightening out health/energy/mind/body to the point where one can sit and work out the finer blockages via meditation. A very depressed person needs the coarse adjustments first.

And I disagree that deep meditation is not introspective. You use the words "inner" or "inward" myriad times in the lessons. All meditation is about going inward, by definition. A severely depressed person oughtn't work inward...not even a little bit. Not even the inwardness of a seated forward bend (that's why such poses are counterindicated for depression). S/he must avoid inwardness. So say most yoga authorities. That said, you're a yoga authority, too, and I take every single thing you say extremely seriously (even if I once in a while disagree!).

[yogani99]

Hi Jim:

There is a big difference between going inward to thinking, and going inward beyond thinking to stillness. The two are not even remotely similar. Deep meditation is the latter.

There is no argument on the usefulness of asanas. However, the best approach to resolving problems of any kind is multi-pronged. Most here understand that.

You are saying that deep meditation should not be used to aid in moving beyond dark moods and depressive thinking, and I have to take issue. If you are right, and since no one is exempt from that condition, then we should suspend AYP right now and go back to the traditional approach of going through the limbs of yoga slowly one at a time. And good luck with that -- it does not work for many. That is why we are here utilizing an open and integrated approach -- self-directed.  

With the door opening beyond thinking to inner silence, many are clearly seeing beyond the mistakes and gloom of the past. More inner awareness is not a bad thing. It reveals and heals. What right do we have to say someone should not have the option of deep meditation? It is a presumption that is not consistent with this modern approach.

Depression is not a forbidden territory owned by a piecemeal mentality. It is an illusion we all share in. It is time for us to move out of there by illuminating with the infinite light source beyond the labyrinth of darkness...

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

I might be able to help to an extent in clearing up this disagreement.  There are some misunderstandings operating between the two of you,  and some differences in semantics.

I have to agree with Jim to this extent --- sometimes meditation interacts negatively with depression.  I'm sure of this and I'll explain why shortly.  

But I don't agree though with any hard-and-fast rule about this.  There is neither a hard-and-fast rule that its effect is always positive,  nor a hard-and-fast rule that its effect is always negative in depression.  

So if someone says depressed people should never meditate,  I disagree.  Meditation will sometimes help depressed people significantly.  

If they say meditation can never make depression worse,  I disagree.  I have experienced it making depression worse,  in a way I will explain shortly.

The disagreement over whether meditation is 'introspective' are I believe purely semantic.  The meaning of the term 'introspective' from which Yogani is operating is more usual and regular,  meaning 'of inward-looking thoughts'.  From this meaning,  our Deep Meditation is indeed not introspective.  The meaning of the term 'introspective' from which Jim is operating is more unusual,  and can be related to the idea of the mind itself going 'inward' in a certain way.  If Jim had used the term 'inwardness' instead,  the confusion would not have arisen.  Since this term will cause less confusion,  I'll use that.

Jim would be right that the inwardness of a meditation that seems in every way good and successful can be unhelpful in certain cases in depression.  What are the circumstances under which it is unhelpful?  I don't know,  though I have some ideas.  Jim has suggested that 'severe' depression contra-indicates meditation.  This may be true,  though this brings up the question 'what is severe',  and it does not necessarily correspond to the 'public' idea of a severe depression,  meaning a highly painful one,  but rather to the clinical idea of a severe depression which is different.

Let me tell you about my own experience.  I was once in a significant depression for some time and still meditating regularly.  My meditations were still in a sense 'successful' (I know that's a bad term,  but we'll deal with it) in the sense that I felt myself going into the silence and I did obtain some 'relief' during it.  However,  someone pointed out to me that I seemed to dip into a somewhat worse state shortly after the meditation.  I watched and I agreed.  So I decided to stop the meditation.  Everything improved rapidly and I was able to get out of the depression (with some work).

The effect was so rapid and conclusive that I feel totally sure that the meditation was interacting negatively with the depression.  For a while,  I thought that the meditation caused the depression.  This proved to be false -- later when I was well,  I meditated happily without any depressive symptoms.

So that's about where it is for now I think.  There are times when meditation makes depression worse and times when it makes it better.  When which happens,  I don't know.  It's all about how complicated depression is.

Maybe a simplification is that meditation is good for mild depression and bad for severe depression.  But I don't even know if that would prove to be true across the board,  or even if it is a helpful generalization.  Perhaps someone has some ideas about that?

[NagoyaSea]

Beloved Alvin,

I have been thinking of you these weeks as I’ve read the posts of all the people in AYP who care about you.  I just had some simple thoughts:

When depressed, it is important to take very good care of our physical bodies:
      There is a connection between our health, the very act of taking care of ourselves and the way we feel.  Eat properly, every day. When depressed, we often don’t want to eat. If this happens, you need to make yourself eat nutritious meals with a balance of protein and vitamins and minerals. And all kidding aside, a little bit of chocolate may actually help you feel better.   Exercise is necessary when we’re depressed. I think you said in your earlier posts that you do exercise daily. Adequate sleep is essential. Keeping to the same sleep routine is beneficial. Try not to sleep over-long though. That is so easy to do when we’re depressed.

It has been my experience that meditation improves depression. There appears to be disagreement on this topic in this forum. But speaking strictly for myself, more meditation equals more joy and a deep, resonant wondering when looking out at the world. An inner joy. If it were me, I would keep the meditation up, religiously, twice a day.

One of the best ways to combat depression is for us to provide service to others. It helps us stop focusing on ourselves, which is helpful when we are depressed. You mentioned teaching children in China. Blessings to you for even considering that. But you don’t have to leave home to provide service to others. So many people need our help. You don’t have to look far. Elderly people, homeless services, tutoring children, food banks, charity thrift stores, the list just doesn’t stop.

I really liked your analogy of wishing you could still be ‘asleep’ and be comfortable with your old Christian beliefs. We all have our own ideas of what God is. To me, as a human, I feel that I don’t have the tools to understand what God truly is. So I refer to the God of my heart or God of my realization because I can’t really know. The idea that God is ‘all that is’ or the set of natural laws that govern our universe seems right to me.  The point is, you can find fellowship – you can find groups of people locally to share your spiritual views with. Being with others in fellowship is so helpful when we’re down.  I’m not going to name any groups here because the search and discovery should be your own.  

And even though you are no longer a Christian, prayer is still a powerful ally. You can pray to the God of your heart or you can ask assistance from the masters who have gone on before you.  I feel very strongly Alvin, that there are those around us, not currently incarnated, who sense our need for help and will assist us if we earnestly ask. If you wish to know why I feel so strongly that this is so, please email me privately.

Please change your internal dialog and address yourself in a loving manner with every thought that you have about yourself. This is important. It may not feel natural at first but you will get the hang of it. When things go wrong, or if you make an error or have a mis-step, do not put yourself down in your own thoughts. Think instead, oh my love, sometimes these things happen. Or oh beloved, I will try this differently next time.  Love yourself in thought and in deed.

Remember also that this too shall pass. If you are having a very bad time of it, get through the next five minutes. And then get through the next hour. And then get through the rest of the day, until it is time for bed and then let yourself recharge. Every day is a new start for each of us. Every day is a chance to make some small improvement in ourselves and every day is a chance to reach out and help someone or make some positive change in this world. And in doing this, you not only help others, but yourself and all of us at the same time…

In all love,
Kathy

[Anthem]

quote:meditation is about going inward, by definition. A severely depressed person oughtn't work inward...not even a little bit. Not even the inwardness of a seated forward bend (that's why such poses are counterindicated for depression). S/he must avoid inwardness. So say most yoga authorities.

Hey Jim,

Are there not numerous ideas that the supposed "yoga authorities" have held or perpetuated in the past that have turned out to be inaccurate?

Being in our heads is a function of being caught up in our thoughts. Depression is a function of a series of thought patterns that lead us to a bleak and dark point. Deep meditation, as Yogani points out (as do numerous other authorities on the subject[]), leads beyond thinking to inner silence (witnessing) and to the cessation of these negative thought cycles. Each time we go into inner silence, the less power and control these negative thought patterns have on us and the brighter a place the world becomes for us.
 

quote:Depression is about great big coarse energy blockages. For untold centuries, asana has been the tool for resolving coarse blockages, and straightening out health/energy/mind/body to the point where one can sit and work out the finer blockages via meditation. A very depressed person needs the coarse adjustments first.

As mentioned above, energy blockages are ultimately a result of our thinking processes. The body and mind are one, the body is where our pain and "negative" emotions are stored. Deep meditation releases these as do asanas but more from an inside out rather than an outside in approach. Asanas work directly on the physical body, releasing blockages and are just as capable as meditation of releasing too much too fast. In fact, the worst case of over-doing release I have ever experienced was from over-doing asanas (which I will post on in the next few days).

Intuitively we know it is not logical to say that deep meditation only works for general unhappiness, anger, frustration, fear and anxiety etc. but not depression. The very nature of shifting our focus to our inner silence away from our created and energized thought patterns helps the latter lose it's hold over us. Deep meditation works to release energy blockages as do asanas. That said, over-doing either can be a problem for anyone and I am sure more so for someone who has a strong negative thought pattern. Ultimately it all comes down to self pacing.
 

quote:Meditation lowers the metabolism and is introspective. Depressives need to speed up and get out of their heads.

As mentioned by Yogani, that's exactly what deep meditation does, it gets you out of your head by taking you out of your thoughts into inner silence. Thinking is the root of depression. Inner silence brings energy out of our created thought patterns that seem so real, into our awareness and increases our ability to witness these thoughts as being separate from our inner selves.

Maybe deep meditation is what a person's inner silence is calling for most of all to help them transcend their situations more quickly? As Yogani points out in a previous post, deep meditation is self-regulating that way in that severe cases people would not be inclined to do it anyway.

[david_obsidian]

Anthem said:
Depression is a function of a series of thought patterns that lead us to a bleak and dark point.
..
Thinking is the root of depression.
 

Anthem,  you are mistaken;  you are over-generalizing.  This is only true of some cases of depression.

Have a very careful look over the analogy I gave between the causes of depression and about what can go wrong with a garden.  A person for whom the only thing that ever went wrong with his garden was an excess of weeds, might come to believe,  and promote the idea that the removal of weeds cures all problems with gardens.  This is in fact false.

Likewise,  it is not true that thinking patterns are the root of all depressions,  or that getting beyond them cures all depressions.

[Anthem]

Hi David,
You edited on me while I was posting this[]! I see what you mean now, so I am re-writing this post to make more sense.
 
I don't see where else depression would come from other than from within. Just to clarify, I use the word thoughts to include our perceptions of our life events. I am not suggesting that any only one thought or event might be the whole cause but also that numerous series of thoughts and perceptions of our life experiences can lead us down this road.

all the best,

A

[yogani99]

Points all well taken, David. The question is, who is the best person to figure out whether deep meditation is going to be helpful or not for a particular case of depression? I believe it can only be the practitioner, based on their personal experience. I trust the practitioner's experience over anyone else's advice, including mine! Of course, the practitioner will never find out if we forbid certain measures for what we consider to be a "serious condition."

That is really the only disagreement I have with you, Jim -- I don't think it is for another to decide what is the best course for us to follow in resolving our problems. Possibilities, pro and con, and recommendations? Absolutely. Black and white exhortations? I cannot agree with that.

Who is prone to depression anyway? Depending on the measuring rod, it could be a few of us, or all of us. I don't know where to draw those lines. But nature does. "Severely depressed" people will not likely be able to maintain a routine of deep meditation practice -- so I repeat the contention that the whole process is self-regulating. That goes for any practice, including asanas. So why should we tell people what they must practice and what they must not practice? If it is available with a reasonable track record and good instructions, and they are looking for a solution, they will find out for themselves soon enough, and more than likely within an acceptable level of risk. Let's not unduly bias the information either way. Then it has the best chance for useful application.

Excellent points today from Richard, Kathy and Anthem too ... picking up on some of them here.

Alvin, give it some time. Maybe quit trying so hard, pamper yourself a bit, have a good laugh , and help out a few nearby who are in need. As Kathy says, they are not hard to find ... Gee, so much good advice here. We all should be feeling better pretty soon.

The guru is in you.

[Etherfish]

Yeah, we're not just ganging up on Alvin; this is for us too.
Hope you don't feel bad we are going on so long, but this is very
interesting for us, and a lot of us have been in your position (me too).

I have a friend who is a psychologist and she believes "mindfullness" and
zen meditation helps a lot of mental problems. Not thinking.

If meditation seemed to make someone's depression worse, it may not be a stop sign for others. The soil of the mind might have been cultivated deeply without enough planting of meditation, or maybe not enough resting time afterword, or maybe (most likely) not enough going out into the world to interact and equalize the benefits.

I agree with NagoyaSea about helping others. Volunteer at something local,
old folks home, homeless shelter, kids club, whatever. It sounds like that may connect with your purpose, and interacting with people who need you really helps. When I worked in a hospital i would lose any feeling of depression I had everytime somebody really bad off would come in.
One day they brought a girl in for an operation. She was handcuffed, escorted by guards because she was a prisoner, she had aids, and she was there to have her gall bladder removed because it was bad and swollen.
I felt a weight lifted off me and i thought "Oh my God, I have No problems!"

Also, to find your purpose, think about what you wanted to do as a child.
Think about all the variations of that. Is helping poor kids what you would really like? Here we have "mentoring" programs where adults spend a little time with kids and do things with them and help them. I think that would make anyone feel good.
but I do want to emphasize strenuous exercise with other people!
Maybe you could do that with poor kids.