299 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:48am
Subject: Kechari as a tool ashwinjlsun
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KEchari Mudra can be achieved without snipping or
cutting the frenum. This is what we had just
ascertained and had been sharing about Lili...Tablya
Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
masters of our current era without it being of major
benefit to the spiritual aspirant. It causes a release
of certain chemicals in the brain that induce a VERY
peaceful state.
FYI
Ashwin
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http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ 303 From: "PParry" <pparry@img.net>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:07am
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool hermes_chela
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>Tablya Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> masters of our current era without it being of major
> benefit to the spiritual aspirant.
Dear Ashwin...what is this? Tablya Kriya? Is there some source I could read
about that?
(or is it already in Yogani's wonderful teaching and I just haven't got that
far...?)
love,
patricia
305 From: "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:54am
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool raw_obsidian
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Dear Patricia,
I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend "talavya" kriya. I
agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so I will quote
directly from a private correspondance I have from him (maybe it is
posted somewhere, I don't know):
>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is cutting the frenum the
hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that -- unless you are a
masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari, and then still
coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over time is the fastest
and easiest way for people who are serious about kechari. Then the
tongue will get as long as it needs to without going to any extreme
measures. Of course, there are many who think the trimming is
extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into kechari, and that
is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
-D
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "PParry" <pparry@i...> wrote:
> >Tablya Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> > included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> > masters of our current era without it being of major
> > benefit to the spiritual aspirant.
>
> Dear Ashwin...what is this? Tablya Kriya? Is there some source I
could read
> about that?
> (or is it already in Yogani's wonderful teaching and I just haven't
got that
> far...?)
>
> love,
> patricia
306 From: "PParry" <pparry@img.net>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool hermes_chela
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Dear D,
Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on that!..so it refers to the
tongue/tooth thing that was described before then. Thanks..I thought it was
another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was different so I couldn't find
it on the net. Just in case I was missing out on something...HAD to know!
I am a bit squeamish about some of these practices (some of these posts find
me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut mouth with my eyes bugging
out :-)
Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I see exactly what you are all
talking about. I would have to take a whole bottle of Cowardly Lion Courage
Pills first....
I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained through strictly mental
means - with correct mental application, there are no barriers, not
physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to a state where you can
hold the mental image focused enough for enough time, the energy channel
would develop anyway...
Well live and let live...thank you so much for settting me straight here.
love,
patricia
> Dear Patricia,
>
> I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend "talavya" kriya. I
> agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so I will quote
> directly from a private correspondance I have from him (maybe it is
> posted somewhere, I don't know):
>
>>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is cutting the frenum the
> hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that -- unless you are a
> masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari, and then still
> coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over time is the fastest
> and easiest way for people who are serious about kechari. Then the
> tongue will get as long as it needs to without going to any extreme
> measures. Of course, there are many who think the trimming is
> extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into kechari, and that
> is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
309 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:23pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool vic
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Patricia,
Depending on your physical anatomy it may not be needed at all to do any snipping. If your tongue can reach past your hard palate and touch your soft palate or if you can lick teh tip of your nose with the tip of your tongue you may not need to snip but simply to stretch your tongue. Once you get past the uvula the major battle is over and it is simply a matter of practice like any Yoga Asana
PParry <pparry@img.net> wrote:
Dear D,
Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on that!..so it refers to the
tongue/tooth thing that was described before then. Thanks..I thought it was
another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was different so I couldn't find
it on the net. Just in case I was missing out on something...HAD to know!
I am a bit squeamish about some of these practices (some of these posts find
me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut mouth with my eyes bugging
out :-)
Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I see exactly what you are all
talking about. I would have to take a whole bottle of Cowardly Lion Courage
Pills first....
I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained through strictly mental
means - with correct mental application, there are no barriers, not
physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to a state where you can
hold the mental image focused enough for enough time, the energy channel
would develop anyway...
Well live and let live...thank you so much for settting me straight here.
love,
patricia
> Dear Patricia,
>
> I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend "talavya" kriya. I
> agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so I will quote
> directly from a private correspondance I have from him (maybe it is
> posted somewhere, I don't know):
>
>>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is cutting the frenum the
> hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that -- unless you are a
> masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari, and then still
> coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over time is the fastest
> and easiest way for people who are serious about kechari. Then the
> tongue will get as long as it needs to without going to any extreme
> measures. Of course, there are many who think the trimming is
> extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into kechari, and that
> is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
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325 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:47pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool obsidian9999
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Dear Patricia,
the best answer on whether they can be obtained by purely mental
means is "yes", "no" and "it all depends". I attained a lot through
purely mental means (I began with mantra yoga), but in time I found
that the various kinds of yoga help each other.
Even after finding a lot of help through purely mental means, I felt
very drawn to Kechari. I actually cut some of my frenum even before
I heard of it as a practice!! My friends were worried about me, but
for me it was intuitive for me to do so and I was eager. The
cultural practice of snipping, thousands of years ago in india,
would have begun as a result of experimentation in that vein.
Maybe Kechari is not for you. Maybe it never will be. Maybe it is
not now, but will be later.
Yoga is a set of tools. All of the tools are all useful, and their
usefulness varies person-to-person, and also according to the time
in each persons life.
Love,
-D
> I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained through strictly
mental
> means - with correct mental application, there are no barriers,
not
> physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to a state where
you can
> hold the mental image focused enough for enough time, the energy
channel
> would develop anyway...
> Well live and let live...thank you so much for settting me straight
here.
>
> love,
> patricia
>
>
> > Dear Patricia,
> >
> > I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend "talavya" kriya.
I
> > agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so I will quote
> > directly from a private correspondance I have from him (maybe it
is
> > posted somewhere, I don't know):
> >
> >>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is cutting the frenum the
> > hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that -- unless you are a
> > masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari, and then still
> > coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over time is the
fastest
> > and easiest way for people who are serious about kechari. Then the
> > tongue will get as long as it needs to without going to any
extreme
> > measures. Of course, there are many who think the trimming is
> > extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into kechari, and
that
> > is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
327 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:19pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
Patricia, I understand your squeamishness, and share some of it myself. There's nothing
wrong with it! If you were to completely shift paradigms in five secs (or even five years),
and decide, for example, that snipping your tongue membrane sounds like the most
natural thing in the world to do, THAT would be nutty! We are who we are, and if we're
sane we adjust and open only gradually and skeptically!
But let me point out that clipping this membrane is no more mutilating than piercing your
ears. It's vastly less noticable to others than an ear piercing. And it serves a deeper
purpose than mere fashion style.
If that perspective opens you just a tad, I'd be glad (hey, that rhymes). No need to actually
snip-snip-snip anytime soon. And do bear in mind that this is "Advanced Yoga Practices".
You've got to expect some esoterica, no?
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "PParry" <pparry@i...> wrote:
> Dear D,
>
> Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on that!..so it refers to the
> tongue/tooth thing that was described before then. Thanks..I thought it was
> another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was different so I couldn't find
> it on the net. Just in case I was missing out on something...HAD to know!
>
> I am a bit squeamish about some of these practices (some of these posts find
> me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut mouth with my eyes bugging
> out :-)
> Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I see exactly what you are all
> talking about. I would have to take a whole bottle of Cowardly Lion Courage
> Pills first....
> I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained through strictly mental
> means - with correct mental application, there are no barriers, not
> physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to a state where you can
> hold the mental image focused enough for enough time, the energy channel
> would develop anyway...
>
> Well live and let live...thank you so much for settting me straight here.
>
> love,
> patricia
>
>
> > Dear Patricia,
> >
> > I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend "talavya" kriya. I
> > agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so I will quote
> > directly from a private correspondance I have from him (maybe it is
> > posted somewhere, I don't know):
> >
> >>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is cutting the frenum the
> > hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that -- unless you are a
> > masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari, and then still
> > coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over time is the fastest
> > and easiest way for people who are serious about kechari. Then the
> > tongue will get as long as it needs to without going to any extreme
> > measures. Of course, there are many who think the trimming is
> > extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into kechari, and that
> > is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
310 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:39pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool ashwinjlsun
Offline
Send Email
Dear Group,
I very much appreciate Yogani and the work done thru
AYP, but I simply want to point out that I personally
know a few yogis that have achieved kechari without
snipping the frenum with a pair of scissors. Yogani
says that it will take too long without the snipping,
but these individuals attained kechari way before old
age, and as far as using the teeth being masochistic,
well, I believe using only the body to train the body
is way less masochistic than taking a foriegn object
and cutting the body with it...
All this said, I still think that both ways are fine,
and that each individual should find their own best
way for them...
--- victor yj <vic@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Patricia,
> Depending on your physical anatomy it may not be
> needed at all to do any snipping. If your tongue can
> reach past your hard palate and touch your soft
> palate or if you can lick teh tip of your nose with
> the tip of your tongue you may not need to snip but
> simply to stretch your tongue. Once you get past the
> uvula the major battle is over and it is simply a
> matter of practice like any Yoga Asana
>
> PParry <pparry@img.net> wrote:
> Dear D,
>
> Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on
> that!..so it refers to the
> tongue/tooth thing that was described before then.
> Thanks..I thought it was
> another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was
> different so I couldn't find
> it on the net. Just in case I was missing out on
> something...HAD to know!
>
> I am a bit squeamish about some of these practices
> (some of these posts find
> me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut
> mouth with my eyes bugging
> out :-)
> Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I see
> exactly what you are all
> talking about. I would have to take a whole bottle
> of Cowardly Lion Courage
> Pills first....
> I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained
> through strictly mental
> means - with correct mental application, there are
> no barriers, not
> physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to
> a state where you can
> hold the mental image focused enough for enough
> time, the energy channel
> would develop anyway...
>
> Well live and let live...thank you so much for
> settting me straight here.
>
> love,
> patricia
>
>
> > Dear Patricia,
> >
> > I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend
> "talavya" kriya. I
> > agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so
> I will quote
> > directly from a private correspondance I have from
> him (maybe it is
> > posted somewhere, I don't know):
> >
> >>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is
> cutting the frenum the
> > hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that --
> unless you are a
> > masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari,
> and then still
> > coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over
> time is the fastest
> > and easiest way for people who are serious about
> kechari. Then the
> > tongue will get as long as it needs to without
> going to any extreme
> > measures. Of course, there are many who think the
> trimming is
> > extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into
> kechari, and that
> > is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
>
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices >
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AYPforum/>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
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http://mail.yahoo.com 319 From: "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:20pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool --- and the "naturalistic fallacy" raw_obsidian
Offline
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Dear Ashwin and Group,
yes it is true that people achieve Kechari high stages without
snipping, so perhaps we go a bit far in putting down Talavya Kriya.
Perhaps what is best depends on your anatomy. Perhaps both Yogani
and I are banged-to-rights here.
I want to question though the concept of "body" and "foreign object".
Why is it better to do something with the body than with a tool? Is
it better to comb your hair with your hands than with a comb? To
brush your teeth with a your finger or with a toothbrush?
I am just being deliberately funny here, not disrespectful.
Human beings may be easily subject to the "naturalistic fallacy";
this can be viewed in two ways.
One is that we err in not knowing that our concept of "natural" is
arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we are accustomed to.
To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity of ones own urine
as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural, and people have
violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is much more
acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is wiser than the
West in this respect.
Many people have objected (more so in the past in teh West) to yogic
stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body can't be "natural"?
We could work out thousands of examples of this sort of thing.
The second error is to believe that what is "natural" is better. Not
only is their no clear "natural", but there is certainly no
clear "better" in this naturalness.
The Western world still inherits something of the 'Noble Savage'
fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of human beings are
the result of conditioning and do not come from nature. Science (and
many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on this, and I agree
with science here. There is also a common fallacy that bad things do
not happen in the natural world, when you take the human beings away.
What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that there is
Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped, and we use Yoga to
find it. I see the division between the Wise and the Unwise as
running across, not perpendicular to the purely-human, culturally-
bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions between Natural and
Unnatural.
And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others find it
*unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that instinct is against
it. But instinct is not always good.
And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my frenum with the
best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors better by far than
my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I can find to be
very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an intelligent animal.
Respectfuly yours,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> I very much appreciate Yogani and the work done thru
> AYP, but I simply want to point out that I personally
> know a few yogis that have achieved kechari without
> snipping the frenum with a pair of scissors. Yogani
> says that it will take too long without the snipping,
> but these individuals attained kechari way before old
> age, and as far as using the teeth being masochistic,
> well, I believe using only the body to train the body
> is way less masochistic than taking a
> and cutting the body with it...
>
> All this said, I still think that both ways are fine,
> and that each individual should find their own best
> way for them...
>
>
> --- victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > Patricia,
> > Depending on your physical anatomy it may not be
> > needed at all to do any snipping. If your tongue can
> > reach past your hard palate and touch your soft
> > palate or if you can lick teh tip of your nose with
> > the tip of your tongue you may not need to snip but
> > simply to stretch your tongue. Once you get past the
> > uvula the major battle is over and it is simply a
> > matter of practice like any Yoga Asana
> >
> > PParry <pparry@i...> wrote:
> > Dear D,
> >
> > Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on
> > that!..so it refers to the
> > tongue/tooth thing that was described before then.
> > Thanks..I thought it was
> > another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was
> > different so I couldn't find
> > it on the net. Just in case I was missing out on
> > something...HAD to know!
> >
> > I am a bit squeamish about some of these practices
> > (some of these posts find
> > me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut
> > mouth with my eyes bugging
> > out :-)
> > Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I see
> > exactly what you are all
> > talking about. I would have to take a whole bottle
> > of Cowardly Lion Courage
> > Pills first....
> > I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained
> > through strictly mental
> > means - with correct mental application, there are
> > no barriers, not
> > physical ones either. Seems to me if you can get to
> > a state where you can
> > hold the mental image focused enough for enough
> > time, the energy channel
> > would develop anyway...
> >
> > Well live and let live...thank you so much for
> > settting me straight here.
> >
> > love,
> > patricia
> >
> >
> > > Dear Patricia,
> > >
> > > I happen to know that Yogani does not recommend
> > "talavya" kriya. I
> > > agree with him. But let me not misquote him, so
> > I will quote
> > > directly from a private correspondance I have from
> > him (maybe it is
> > > posted somewhere, I don't know):
> > >
> > >>>>>> Then there is talavya kriya, which is
> > cutting the frenum the
> > > hard way, with the lower teeth. Forget that --
> > unless you are a
> > > masochist, and have 50 years to get into kechari,
> > and then still
> > > coming up way short. Trimming in tiny steps over
> > time is the fastest
> > > and easiest way for people who are serious about
> > kechari. Then the
> > > tongue will get as long as it needs to without
> > going to any extreme
> > > measures. Of course, there are many who think the
> > trimming is
> > > extreme. Well, it works the best for getting into
> > kechari, and that
> > > is the proof of the pudding. -- Yogani
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
> >
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices > >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AYPforum/> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> > Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
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http://mail.yahoo.com 328 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:06pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool --- and the "naturalistic fallacy" obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
lili,
to me the only question is whether it is wise or not. I do not mind
the claim that it is unnatural, though I question the utility of
that persons concept of "natural", and suggest they examine
themselves philosophically for automatic thinking and the
naturalistic fallacy.
I do not mind the claim that it is 'mutilation', but do not agree
with the use of the term if that is supposed, from the term alone, to
imply that it is unwise. Certainly, ear-piercing is mutilation in
the same way, but I would not describe ear-piercing as unwise. Mind
you, I would have described ear-piercing as "unnatural and unwise"
at one time, but I was more of a fanatic then, and I would say less
wise than I am now.
It can certainly be described as "unnecessary", but what aspect of
yoga, or indeed any practice, cannot be described as unnecessary by
someone? And from another point of view, are not spiritual and self-
developmental practices one of the *MOST* necessary things on the
planet?
Are you convinced that it unwise to practice frenum-snipping? If you
are, perhaps you could state your reasons for believing it is
unwise, and a focussed and intelligent debate could develop from
there.
One simple way to evaluate the wisdom of it is through a cost-benefit
analysis. Many yogis, including me, have experienced its benefits
and find them wonderful. What is the cost? What is the loss?
To me, the cost has been about $7 for a cuticle scissors, about the
same in an antisceptic mouthwash, and about five minutes of my time
per month. I find the benefits far outweigh the cost, and find it
has been a wise choice for me.
Regards,
-D
> my objection was not on the grounds of
> its naturalness or otherwise;
> it was on the grounds of its unnecessaryness.
>
>
> lili
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Ashwin and Group,
> >
> > yes it is true that people achieve Kechari high stages without
> > snipping, so perhaps we go a bit far in putting down Talavya
> Kriya.
> > Perhaps what is best depends on your anatomy. Perhaps both
Yogani
> > and I are banged-to-rights here.
> >
> > I want to question though the concept of "body" and "foreign
> object".
> >
> > Why is it better to do something with the body than with a tool?
> Is
> > it better to comb your hair with your hands than with a comb? To
> > brush your teeth with a your finger or with a toothbrush?
> >
> > I am just being deliberately funny here, not disrespectful.
> >
> > Human beings may be easily subject to the "naturalistic
fallacy";
> > this can be viewed in two ways.
> >
> > One is that we err in not knowing that our concept of "natural"
is
> > arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we are accustomed
> to.
> > To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity of ones own
> urine
> > as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural, and people
have
> > violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is much more
> > acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is wiser than
the
> > West in this respect.
> >
> > Many people have objected (more so in the past in teh West) to
> yogic
> > stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body can't
> be "natural"?
> >
> > We could work out thousands of examples of this sort of thing.
> >
> > The second error is to believe that what is "natural" is better.
> Not
> > only is their no clear "natural", but there is certainly no
> > clear "better" in this naturalness.
> >
> > The Western world still inherits something of the 'Noble Savage'
> > fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of human beings
are
> > the result of conditioning and do not come from nature. Science
> (and
> > many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on this, and I
agree
> > with science here. There is also a common fallacy that bad
things
> do
> > not happen in the natural world, when you take the human beings
> away.
> >
> > What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that there is
> > Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped, and we use
Yoga
> to
> > find it. I see the division between the Wise and the Unwise as
> > running across, not perpendicular to the purely-human,
culturally-
> > bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions between Natural
and
> > Unnatural.
> >
> > And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others find it
> > *unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that instinct is
against
> > it. But instinct is not always good.
> >
> > And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my frenum with
the
> > best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors better by far
than
> > my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I can find to
be
> > very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an intelligent animal.
> >
> > Respectfuly yours,
> >
> > -David
340 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:19pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool --- and the "naturalistic fallacy" ashwinjlsun
Offline
Send Email
David...
I AGREE!
Naturalness is an illusion...everything humans create
is created via our 'natural' exploration of life, and
thus we create a myriad plethora of 'unnatural'
substances...but really, as we are all one
consciousness, this distinction doesn't truley hold
up.
Just to clarify... I was recommended not to cut the
frenum, and I wanted the validity of Tablaya Kriya to
be known, but I am borderline at this point, and may
try a snip just to see how I truly feel about it...
YOu can't know about something until you try it,
right?
I just wanted to be sure that the more conservative
readers knew that there was another method to reach
kechari mudra without snipping the frenum with
scissors.
Thanks David, your input helps me understand my
position even better...this is why this forum is sooo
nice!
Namaste- and much respect...
Ashwin
--- raw_obsidian <raw_obsidian@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Ashwin and Group,
>
> yes it is true that people achieve Kechari high
> stages without
> snipping, so perhaps we go a bit far in putting
> down Talavya Kriya.
> Perhaps what is best depends on your anatomy.
> Perhaps both Yogani
> and I are banged-to-rights here.
>
> I want to question though the concept of "body" and
> "foreign object".
>
> Why is it better to do something with the body than
> with a tool? Is
> it better to comb your hair with your hands than
> with a comb? To
> brush your teeth with a your finger or with a
> toothbrush?
>
> I am just being deliberately funny here, not
> disrespectful.
>
> Human beings may be easily subject to the
> "naturalistic fallacy";
> this can be viewed in two ways.
>
> One is that we err in not knowing that our concept
> of "natural" is
> arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we
> are accustomed to.
> To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity
> of ones own urine
> as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural,
> and people have
> violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is
> much more
> acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is
> wiser than the
> West in this respect.
>
> Many people have objected (more so in the past in
> teh West) to yogic
> stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body
> can't be "natural"?
>
> We could work out thousands of examples of this sort
> of thing.
>
> The second error is to believe that what is
> "natural" is better. Not
> only is their no clear "natural", but there is
> certainly no
> clear "better" in this naturalness.
>
> The Western world still inherits something of the
> 'Noble Savage'
> fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of
> human beings are
> the result of conditioning and do not come from
> nature. Science (and
> many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on
> this, and I agree
> with science here. There is also a common fallacy
> that bad things do
> not happen in the natural world, when you take the
> human beings away.
>
> What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that
> there is
> Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped,
> and we use Yoga to
> find it. I see the division between the Wise and
> the Unwise as
> running across, not perpendicular to the
> purely-human, culturally-
> bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions
> between Natural and
> Unnatural.
>
> And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others
> find it
> *unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that
> instinct is against
> it. But instinct is not always good.
>
> And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my
> frenum with the
> best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors
> better by far than
> my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I
> can find to be
> very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an
> intelligent animal.
>
> Respectfuly yours,
>
> -David
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Sun
> <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> > Dear Group,
> >
> > I very much appreciate Yogani and the work done
> thru
> > AYP, but I simply want to point out that I
> personally
> > know a few yogis that have achieved kechari
> without
> > snipping the frenum with a pair of scissors.
> Yogani
> > says that it will take too long without the
> snipping,
> > but these individuals attained kechari way before
> old
> > age, and as far as using the teeth being
> masochistic,
> > well, I believe using only the body to train the
> body
> > is way less masochistic than taking a
> > and cutting the body with it...
> >
> > All this said, I still think that both ways are
> fine,
> > and that each individual should find their own
> best
> > way for them...
> >
> >
> > --- victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > > Patricia,
> > > Depending on your physical anatomy it may not be
> > > needed at all to do any snipping. If your tongue
> can
> > > reach past your hard palate and touch your soft
> > > palate or if you can lick teh tip of your nose
> with
> > > the tip of your tongue you may not need to snip
> but
> > > simply to stretch your tongue. Once you get past
> the
> > > uvula the major battle is over and it is simply
> a
> > > matter of practice like any Yoga Asana
> > >
> > > PParry <pparry@i...> wrote:
> > > Dear D,
> > >
> > > Ah! thanks very much for the speedy reply on
> > > that!..so it refers to the
> > > tongue/tooth thing that was described before
> then.
> > > Thanks..I thought it was
> > > another term I hadn't heard (the spelling was
> > > different so I couldn't find
> > > it on the net. Just in case I was missing out
> on
> > > something...HAD to know!
> > >
> > > I am a bit squeamish about some of these
> practices
> > > (some of these posts find
> > > me with my palm firmly clamped over my very shut
> > > mouth with my eyes bugging
> > > out :-)
> > > Though I did go to a mirror and have a look - I
> see
> > > exactly what you are all
> > > talking about. I would have to take a whole
> bottle
> > > of Cowardly Lion Courage
> > > Pills first....
> > > I wonder....if the same thing can be obtained
> > > through strictly mental
> > > means - with correct mental application, there
> are
> > > no barriers, not
> > > physical ones either. Seems to me if you can
> get to
> > > a state where you can
> > > hold the mental image focused enough for enough
> > > time, the energy channel
> > > would develop anyway...
> > >
> > > Well live and let live...thank you so much for
> > > settting me straight here.
> > >
> > > love,
> > > patricia
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Patricia,
> > > >
> > > > I happen to know that Yogani does not
> recommend
> > > "talavya" kriya. I
> > > > agree with him. But let me not misquote him,
> so
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________
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http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ 348 From: "Alex Marks" <alex@amarks81.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:38am
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool --- and the "naturalistic fallacy" alexmarks9
Offline
Send Email
I was very worried about snipping and researched the alternatives i.e. Talavya (shame we don't have an ancient term for the snipping) or doing nothing . In the end I decided on snipping and am in the early stages of that. It was a huge step for me and I was very charged up while doing it. Probably because of this the thought of initiation came to mind during the process, with myself as the initiator and the initated.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> Dear Ashwin and Group,
>
> yes it is true that people achieve Kechari high stages without
> snipping, so perhaps we go a bit far in putting down Talavya
Kriya.
> Perhaps what is best depends on your anatomy. Perhaps both Yogani
> and I are banged-to-rights here.
>
> I want to question though the concept of "body" and "foreign
object".
>
> Why is it better to do something with the body than with a tool?
Is
> it better to comb your hair with your hands than with a comb? To
> brush your teeth with a your finger or with a toothbrush?
>
> I am just being deliberately funny here, not disrespectful.
>
> Human beings may be easily subject to the "naturalistic fallacy";
> this can be viewed in two ways.
>
> One is that we err in not knowing that our concept of "natural" is
> arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we are accustomed
to.
> To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity of ones own
urine
> as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural, and people have
> violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is much more
> acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is wiser than the
> West in this respect.
>
> Many people have objected (more so in the past in teh West) to
yogic
> stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body can't
be "natural"?
>
> We could work out thousands of examples of this sort of thing.
>
> The second error is to believe that what is "natural" is better.
Not
> only is their no clear "natural", but there is certainly no
> clear "better" in this naturalness.
>
> The Western world still inherits something of the 'Noble Savage'
> fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of human beings are
> the result of conditioning and do not come from nature. Science
(and
> many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on this, and I agree
> with science here. There is also a common fallacy that bad things
do
> not happen in the natural world, when you take the human beings
away.
>
> What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that there is
> Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped, and we use Yoga
to
> find it. I see the division between the Wise and the Unwise as
> running across, not perpendicular to the purely-human, culturally-
> bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions between Natural and
> Unnatural.
>
> And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others find it
> *unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that instinct is against
> it. But instinct is not always good.
>
> And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my frenum with the
> best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors better by far than
> my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I can find to be
> very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an intelligent animal.
>
> Respectfuly yours,
>
> -David
379 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:20pm
Subject: Clipping Kriya/ Snipping Kriya obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
> i.e. Talavya (shame we don't have an ancient term for the snipping)
> or doing nothing .
Perhaps we should give it a name that elevates its status a little.
So, using the principles of good marketing, why not call it "
Snipping Kriya ", or " Clipping Kriya ".
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Marks" <alex@a...> wrote:
> I was very worried about snipping and researched the alternatives
i.e. Talavya (shame we don't have an ancient term for the snipping)
or doing nothing . In the end I decided on snipping and am in the
early stages of that. It was a huge step for me and I was very
charged up while doing it. Probably because of this the thought of
initiation came to mind during the process, with myself as the
initiator and the initated.
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "raw_obsidian" <raw_obsidian@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dear Ashwin and Group,
> >
> > yes it is true that people achieve Kechari high stages without
> > snipping, so perhaps we go a bit far in putting down Talavya
> Kriya.
> > Perhaps what is best depends on your anatomy. Perhaps both
Yogani
> > and I are banged-to-rights here.
> >
> > I want to question though the concept of "body" and "foreign
> object".
> >
> > Why is it better to do something with the body than with a tool?
> Is
> > it better to comb your hair with your hands than with a comb? To
> > brush your teeth with a your finger or with a toothbrush?
> >
> > I am just being deliberately funny here, not disrespectful.
> >
> > Human beings may be easily subject to the "naturalistic
fallacy";
> > this can be viewed in two ways.
> >
> > One is that we err in not knowing that our concept of "natural"
is
> > arbitrary. Often it comes down simply to what we are accustomed
> to.
> > To a Westerner, amaroli (drinking a small quantity of ones own
> urine
> > as a health-stimulant) is disturbingly unnatural, and people
have
> > violent reactions to the idea. In India, it is much more
> > acceptable. They know it is a good tonic. India is wiser than
the
> > West in this respect.
> >
> > Many people have objected (more so in the past in teh West) to
> yogic
> > stretching itself. Surely doing that to the body can't
> be "natural"?
> >
> > We could work out thousands of examples of this sort of thing.
> >
> > The second error is to believe that what is "natural" is better.
> Not
> > only is their no clear "natural", but there is certainly no
> > clear "better" in this naturalness.
> >
> > The Western world still inherits something of the 'Noble Savage'
> > fallacy, where it is believed that the problems of human beings
are
> > the result of conditioning and do not come from nature. Science
> (and
> > many aspects of Eastern philosophy) disagrees on this, and I
agree
> > with science here. There is also a common fallacy that bad
things
> do
> > not happen in the natural world, when you take the human beings
> away.
> >
> > What *is* true (and what all yogis know) is that there is
> > Intelligence and Wisdom which are often untapped, and we use
Yoga
> to
> > find it. I see the division between the Wise and the Unwise as
> > running across, not perpendicular to the purely-human,
culturally-
> > bound and ironically *artificial* distinctions between Natural
and
> > Unnatural.
> >
> > And so I find it wise to snip my frenum while others find it
> > *unnatural*. I certainly agree with them that instinct is
against
> > it. But instinct is not always good.
> >
> > And according to what wisdom I can find, I snip my frenum with
the
> > best tool I can find. I find a cuticle scissors better by far
than
> > my teeth, and find my own choice of the best tool I can find to
be
> > very "natural" (in the sense of good) for an intelligent animal.
> >
> > Respectfuly yours,
> >
> > -David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
312 From: "vasililisa" <eryugaia@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool vasililisa
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> KEchari Mudra can be achieved without snipping or
> cutting the frenum. This is what we had just
> ascertained and had been sharing about Lili...Tablya
> Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> masters of our current era without it being of major
> benefit to the spiritual aspirant. It causes a release
> of certain chemicals in the brain that induce a VERY
> peaceful state.
>
> FYI
>
> Ashwin
mere existance is no guarantee of anything
what would that "major benefit" be Ashwin?
what benefits can the practitioner expect
to result from this practice?
lili
314 From: "Alex Marks" <alex@amarks81.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:55pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool alexmarks9
Offline
Send Email
Lili, surely you should read lesson 108!
----- Original Message -----
From: vasililisa
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:42 PM
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari as a tool
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> KEchari Mudra can be achieved without snipping or
> cutting the frenum. This is what we had just
> ascertained and had been sharing about Lili...Tablya
> Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> masters of our current era without it being of major
> benefit to the spiritual aspirant. It causes a release
> of certain chemicals in the brain that induce a VERY
> peaceful state.
>
> FYI
>
> Ashwin
mere existance is no guarantee of anything
what would that "major benefit" be Ashwin?
what benefits can the practitioner expect
to result from this practice?
lili
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
316 From: "vasililisa" <eryugaia@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:10pm
Subject: Re: Kechari as a tool vasililisa
Offline
Send Email
what makes you think I haven't?
lili
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Marks" <alex@a...> wrote:
> Lili, surely you should read lesson 108!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vasililisa
> To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:42 PM
> Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari as a tool
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...>
wrote:
> > KEchari Mudra can be achieved without snipping or
> > cutting the frenum. This is what we had just
> > ascertained and had been sharing about Lili...Tablya
> > Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> > included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> > masters of our current era without it being of major
> > benefit to the spiritual aspirant. It causes a release
> > of certain chemicals in the brain that induce a VERY
> > peaceful state.
> >
> > FYI
> >
> > Ashwin
>
> mere existance is no guarantee of anything
>
> what would that "major benefit" be Ashwin?
> what benefits can the practitioner expect
> to result from this practice?
>
>
> lili
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
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> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
317 From: "Alex Marks" <alex@amarks81.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:31pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool alexmarks9
Offline
Send Email
well, because it explains the benefits.
----- Original Message -----
From: vasililisa
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:10 PM
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari as a tool
what makes you think I haven't?
lili
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Marks" <alex@a...> wrote:
> Lili, surely you should read lesson 108!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vasililisa
> To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:42 PM
> Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari as a tool
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...>
wrote:
> > KEchari Mudra can be achieved without snipping or
> > cutting the frenum. This is what we had just
> > ascertained and had been sharing about Lili...Tablya
> > Kriya can get you there...this practice would not be
> > included in the Lineages of some of the greatest
> > masters of our current era without it being of major
> > benefit to the spiritual aspirant. It causes a release
> > of certain chemicals in the brain that induce a VERY
> > peaceful state.
> >
> > FYI
> >
> > Ashwin
>
> mere existance is no guarantee of anything
>
> what would that "major benefit" be Ashwin?
> what benefits can the practitioner expect
> to result from this practice?
>
>
> lili
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices >
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>
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> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
333 From: "PParry" <pparry@img.net>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari as a tool hermes_chela
Offline
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Dear Jim (and his Karma!) and all,
