631 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 11:49am
Subject: Re: Re: Halasana - Need help vic
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Jim described it well. The 7th cervical vertebrae (vertebrae prominans) is at the base of the neck just before the first thoracic. This is the spot that tends to get the brunt of shoulderstand. Shoulderstand seems to be a problematic posture for many and most chiropractors advise against it. If one does headstand however it is important to releive trhe pressure on the neck afterwards and that is an important role for shoulderstand and plough. It also soothes the nerves and gives an inverted pose that helps counteract some of the impact of gravity.
jim_and_his_karma <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com> wrote:
There are better people than me to answer this (victor, probably, for that matter). I'm not
real schooled in anatomy, just well trained in yoga. But let me take a stab, and others can
correct.
The vertebara which gets crunched in shoulder stand (and, less, halasana) is the one right
at the base of where neck joins shoulders. It's easy to confirm...do a shoulder stand, and
notice what's sitting on the floor bearing all your weight. That's the one. Poor little guy.
Try doing shoulder stand on smooth, carefully folded blankets (no lumps!). A rise of as
much as like 4 inches is fine. Make sure that the rounded part of the fold is the part facing
your neck, and let your neck extend a couple inches past this (i.e. the edge of the blankets
shouldn't actually touch your neck). Shoulders and arms on the blankets. You'll see that
this vertebra is now free and clear and bearing no load.
Try an experiment. Next person you meet who practices yoga, ask if they use blankets in
shoulderstand. If the answer is "no", ask to touch this vertebra. It will almost certainly be
swollen. It's an intrinsic problem with yoga. Note, though, that some smart people (as
experienced as I am) believe the dangers are overblown. But why take the chance?
Work hard to move all your weight up, up, up. Aim to walk on the ceiling. And don't let
your elbows splay out. I use a belt to keep them narrow and parallel. And don't let the
weight of trunk and legs fall on your neck. It's shoulder stand, not neck stand. Keeping the
body quite straight, slowly move your feet in the opposite direction of your head until the
weight is truly on your shoulders. It may seem hard to sustain, but you'll get used to it!
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <trian3@c...> wrote:
>
>
> Very interesting. I thought I was pretty safe doing these shoulder
> stands due to my slim but relatively muscular physique. But in light
> of what you've written here, I'll certainly have to reconsider that.
> Tell me... I haven't had much experience w/ spinal anatomy. How
> exactly do I find C5/C6? Is C6 the one that juts out the most at the
> base of the neck before it starts curving back?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg M.
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > But all the senior teachers, to my knowledge, use multiple blankets.
> Iyengar has disavowed
> > many things in LIght on Yoga...he's learned much in the half century
> since the book came
> > out. And I think you may be understating his rationale for the
> blankets. It wasn't an "oh,
> > what the hell" thing. Consider: Patricia Walden (one of the two top
> Iyengar yogis in US,
> > famed for being able to do every pose in Light on Yoga, does 100+
> dropbacks into urdva
> > dhanurasana, etc) has recently gone from three blankets to two in
> her shoulderstand
> > practice, only because after decades of work she is finally able to
> elevate the cervical
> > vertebra on her own...a little (Iyengar himself creates an enormous
> tunnel in the spinal
> > cavity - you can plunge your fist in easily when he's in shoulder
> stand or halasana...so he
> > doesn't need blankets).
> >
> > And since (at least in strict Iyengar practice) shoulderstand
> follows immediately after
> > halasana, without pause, it's hard to imagine how the blanket stack
> could be modified on
> > the fly.
> >
> > That said, the whole point of yoga is to do what you think is right
> for you, plus Iyengar is
> > just one system, anyway, so I'm not arguing with you, Victor! I
> think we can at least agree
> > that blankets are a good path of caution. I know that I'd have a
> much better neck today
> > (and a vertebra less reminscent of a squashed kiwi fruit) if I
> hadn't done a few years of
> > blanketless shoulderstand and halasana practice. I wasnt' then (and
> still am not today,
> > decades later) able to get c6/c7 off the ground through sheer
> physical control.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > While the blankets are certainly helpful (and not at all mentioned
> in "Light On Yoga") I do
> > not find them as necessary in Halasana as in the shoulderstand. I
> would certainly fold up a
> > blanket or two to put under the shoulders in Halasana if for no
> other reason than to
> > prevent the occiput from taking too much pressure on the floor but I
> also see a trend
> > towards too much reliance on lots of blankets. Iyengar developed
> this blanket usage for
> > people with stiff necks and then decided that it would be safer for
> everyone. I still
> > recommend it especially in shoulderstand but you need less in plough
> as the weigh is also
> > distributed through the feet rather than in a line directly over the
> neck.
> > > This use of the blankets should be folded flat and stacked with
> two or three blankets
> > stacked and placed on the floor. the head lies off of the vblankets
> on the floor while the
> > arms and shoulders are supported by the blankets. One should
> experiment with how many
> > blankets rtanging from 1 to 4 depending on your length of neck, size
> of blankets, stiffness
> > etc. Don't worry about beineg beginner or advanced with this, use
> what feels the most
> > comfortable, supportive and encourages the lift in the neck that I
> talked about.
> > >
> > > jim_and_his_karma <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Greg, I'd very strongly recommend this book:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/> > > detail/-/0679722874 if you have no choice but to work from books.
> > >
> > > There are great Iyengar school teachers in SF. Ping again if you
> need reccos.
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello Victor,
> > > >
> > > > Yes, indeed. It helps very much. Thank you. I look forward to
> > > > making the adjustments for this morning's practice. Given that
> > > > explanation, I can see now how proper instruction is considered so
> > > > necessary. Right now, where I live, that's not an option, but soon
> > > > (hopefully) I'll be moving down to the Bay Area (CA) and will most
> > > > assuredly be getting proper instruction at that time. Until
> then, the
> > > > book and this forum are my only resources.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > Greg M.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > What you want is to roll the shoulders towards the the
> > > > shoulderblades so that the bodyweight is balanced as much as
> possible
> > > > on the shoulders and not on the neck. the feeling should be that the
> > > > neck is somewhat lifted from the floor by the roatation of the
> > > > shoulders. The sequence for hand placement in halasana is first to
> > > > hold the back as in shoulderstand. In some months as this
> becomes easy
> > > > then take the arms over the ehad on the floor towards the feet. Then
> > > > when this becomes easy one take the hands and arms in the opposite
> > > > direction from the feet but not interlocking. The final grasp of the
> > > > hands is the icing on the cake. It should go along with the lift of
> > > > the neck from the floor and the weight on the shoulders. There
> should
> > > > feel no pressure on the 7th cervical vertebrae and the neck should
> > > > retain as much of its natural curve as possible rather than being
> > > > flattened on the floor or lengthening. Do not try to lengthen
> the neck
> > > > but feel that the neck is light with minimal stretch to
> > > > > the back of the neck. stretch should be at the throat with
> the chin
> > > > untucking and soft as the chest moves towards the chin.
> > > > > Does that help?
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I thank you for your concern, but I consider myself to have a very
> > > > > good sense of bodily awareness developed through years of
> training in
> > > > > other disciplines. Given the nature of yoga, I find my level of
> > > > > consciousness heightened even more as I do the exercises.
> What
> > > > > then is the best way to increase the requisite flexibility in
> this
> > > > area?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg M
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't worry about the interlock, just keep the hands loose
> or hold
> > > > > tghe back with them at first. Halasana takes time and to try
> to push
> > > > > too far too fast will do more harm than good. Just take it
> slow and go
> > > > > with the breath and the feeling. This pose and shoulderstand
> should
> > > > > really be taught by a good teacher though rather than from a
> book as
> > > > > the neck is very delicate and you don't want to injure your neck.
> > > > > Trust me on that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just recently started doing Hatha yoga and am following the
> > > > > > beginner's regimen as outlined in BKS Iyengar's "Light on
> Yoga". The
> > > > > > second to final asana in the first two week course is called
> > > > > > Halasana (Pgs 216-220 if you have the book). I'm having
> trouble with
> > > > > > interlocking my hands and most especially with turning them
> over.
> > > > > > Does anyone have a tip or two that will help with this? I'm
> uncertain
> > > > > > if it's a matter of simple flexibility or if it's more the
> case of
> > > > > > muscle getting in the way. Any advice is welcome.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank-you,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg M
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PS I hope this is the right forum in which to post this.
> If not, I
> > > > > > apologize.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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633 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:12pm
Subject: Re: Halasana - Need help jim_and_his_...
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Victor knows this, but I'm just chiming in to add that while shoulderstand is indeed
important to counteract headstand, and soothe nerves, it also does a lot more than that.
Shoulderstand and headstand are the cruxes of asana practice....the queen and king of
poses, respectively. The benefits of shoulderstand are too many to list.
So since it's great to do...but also risky to do....it makes sense to limit the risk. Hence, my
piles of blankets. I haven't done the pose sans blankets in over 20 years. But the pose is so
important that....words fail. It's really important.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
>
> Jim described it well. The 7th cervical vertebrae (vertebrae prominans) is at the base of
the neck just before the first thoracic. This is the spot that tends to get the brunt of
shoulderstand. Shoulderstand seems to be a problematic posture for many and most
chiropractors advise against it. If one does headstand however it is important to releive
trhe pressure on the neck afterwards and that is an important role for shoulderstand and
plough. It also soothes the nerves and gives an inverted pose that helps counteract some
of the impact of gravity.
>
> jim_and_his_karma <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
>
> There are better people than me to answer this (victor, probably, for that matter). I'm
not
> real schooled in anatomy, just well trained in yoga. But let me take a stab, and others
can
> correct.
>
> The vertebara which gets crunched in shoulder stand (and, less, halasana) is the one
right
> at the base of where neck joins shoulders. It's easy to confirm...do a shoulder stand, and
> notice what's sitting on the floor bearing all your weight. That's the one. Poor little guy.
>
> Try doing shoulder stand on smooth, carefully folded blankets (no lumps!). A rise of as
> much as like 4 inches is fine. Make sure that the rounded part of the fold is the part
facing
> your neck, and let your neck extend a couple inches past this (i.e. the edge of the
blankets
> shouldn't actually touch your neck). Shoulders and arms on the blankets. You'll see that
> this vertebra is now free and clear and bearing no load.
>
> Try an experiment. Next person you meet who practices yoga, ask if they use blankets
in
> shoulderstand. If the answer is "no", ask to touch this vertebra. It will almost certainly be
> swollen. It's an intrinsic problem with yoga. Note, though, that some smart people (as
> experienced as I am) believe the dangers are overblown. But why take the chance?
>
> Work hard to move all your weight up, up, up. Aim to walk on the ceiling. And don't let
> your elbows splay out. I use a belt to keep them narrow and parallel. And don't let the
> weight of trunk and legs fall on your neck. It's shoulder stand, not neck stand. Keeping
the
> body quite straight, slowly move your feet in the opposite direction of your head until
the
> weight is truly on your shoulders. It may seem hard to sustain, but you'll get used to it!
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <trian3@c...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Very interesting. I thought I was pretty safe doing these shoulder
> > stands due to my slim but relatively muscular physique. But in light
> > of what you've written here, I'll certainly have to reconsider that.
> > Tell me... I haven't had much experience w/ spinal anatomy. How
> > exactly do I find C5/C6? Is C6 the one that juts out the most at the
> > base of the neck before it starts curving back?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Greg M.
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > But all the senior teachers, to my knowledge, use multiple blankets.
> > Iyengar has disavowed
> > > many things in LIght on Yoga...he's learned much in the half century
> > since the book came
> > > out. And I think you may be understating his rationale for the
> > blankets. It wasn't an "oh,
> > > what the hell" thing. Consider: Patricia Walden (one of the two top
> > Iyengar yogis in US,
> > > famed for being able to do every pose in Light on Yoga, does 100+
> > dropbacks into urdva
> > > dhanurasana, etc) has recently gone from three blankets to two in
> > her shoulderstand
> > > practice, only because after decades of work she is finally able to
> > elevate the cervical
> > > vertebra on her own...a little (Iyengar himself creates an enormous
> > tunnel in the spinal
> > > cavity - you can plunge your fist in easily when he's in shoulder
> > stand or halasana...so he
> > > doesn't need blankets).
> > >
> > > And since (at least in strict Iyengar practice) shoulderstand
> > follows immediately after
> > > halasana, without pause, it's hard to imagine how the blanket stack
> > could be modified on
> > > the fly.
> > >
> > > That said, the whole point of yoga is to do what you think is right
> > for you, plus Iyengar is
> > > just one system, anyway, so I'm not arguing with you, Victor! I
> > think we can at least agree
> > > that blankets are a good path of caution. I know that I'd have a
> > much better neck today
> > > (and a vertebra less reminscent of a squashed kiwi fruit) if I
> > hadn't done a few years of
> > > blanketless shoulderstand and halasana practice. I wasnt' then (and
> > still am not today,
> > > decades later) able to get c6/c7 off the ground through sheer
> > physical control.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > While the blankets are certainly helpful (and not at all mentioned
> > in "Light On Yoga") I do
> > > not find them as necessary in Halasana as in the shoulderstand. I
> > would certainly fold up a
> > > blanket or two to put under the shoulders in Halasana if for no
> > other reason than to
> > > prevent the occiput from taking too much pressure on the floor but I
> > also see a trend
> > > towards too much reliance on lots of blankets. Iyengar developed
> > this blanket usage for
> > > people with stiff necks and then decided that it would be safer for
> > everyone. I still
> > > recommend it especially in shoulderstand but you need less in plough
> > as the weigh is also
> > > distributed through the feet rather than in a line directly over the
> > neck.
> > > > This use of the blankets should be folded flat and stacked with
> > two or three blankets
> > > stacked and placed on the floor. the head lies off of the vblankets
> > on the floor while the
> > > arms and shoulders are supported by the blankets. One should
> > experiment with how many
> > > blankets rtanging from 1 to 4 depending on your length of neck, size
> > of blankets, stiffness
> > > etc. Don't worry about beineg beginner or advanced with this, use
> > what feels the most
> > > comfortable, supportive and encourages the lift in the neck that I
> > talked about.
> > > >
> > > > jim_and_his_karma <jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Greg, I'd very strongly recommend this book:
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/> > > > detail/-/0679722874 if you have no choice but to work from books.
> > > >
> > > > There are great Iyengar school teachers in SF. Ping again if you
> > need reccos.
> > > >
> > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Victor,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, indeed. It helps very much. Thank you. I look forward to
> > > > > making the adjustments for this morning's practice. Given that
> > > > > explanation, I can see now how proper instruction is considered so
> > > > > necessary. Right now, where I live, that's not an option, but soon
> > > > > (hopefully) I'll be moving down to the Bay Area (CA) and will most
> > > > > assuredly be getting proper instruction at that time. Until
> > then, the
> > > > > book and this forum are my only resources.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you,
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg M.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What you want is to roll the shoulders towards the the
> > > > > shoulderblades so that the bodyweight is balanced as much as
> > possible
> > > > > on the shoulders and not on the neck. the feeling should be that the
> > > > > neck is somewhat lifted from the floor by the roatation of the
> > > > > shoulders. The sequence for hand placement in halasana is first to
> > > > > hold the back as in shoulderstand. In some months as this
> > becomes easy
> > > > > then take the arms over the ehad on the floor towards the feet. Then
> > > > > when this becomes easy one take the hands and arms in the opposite
> > > > > direction from the feet but not interlocking. The final grasp of the
> > > > > hands is the icing on the cake. It should go along with the lift of
> > > > > the neck from the floor and the weight on the shoulders. There
> > should
> > > > > feel no pressure on the 7th cervical vertebrae and the neck should
> > > > > retain as much of its natural curve as possible rather than being
> > > > > flattened on the floor or lengthening. Do not try to lengthen
> > the neck
> > > > > but feel that the neck is light with minimal stretch to
> > > > > > the back of the neck. stretch should be at the throat with
> > the chin
> > > > > untucking and soft as the chest moves towards the chin.
> > > > > > Does that help?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thank you for your concern, but I consider myself to have a very
> > > > > > good sense of bodily awareness developed through years of
> > training in
> > > > > > other disciplines. Given the nature of yoga, I find my level of
> > > > > > consciousness heightened even more as I do the exercises.
> > What
> > > > > > then is the best way to increase the requisite flexibility in
> > this
> > > > > area?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg M
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't worry about the interlock, just keep the hands loose
> > or hold
> > > > > > tghe back with them at first. Halasana takes time and to try
> > to push
> > > > > > too far too fast will do more harm than good. Just take it
> > slow and go
> > > > > > with the breath and the feeling. This pose and shoulderstand
> > should
> > > > > > really be taught by a good teacher though rather than from a
> > book as
> > > > > > the neck is very delicate and you don't want to injure your neck.
> > > > > > Trust me on that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greg <trian3@c...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just recently started doing Hatha yoga and am following the
> > > > > > > beginner's regimen as outlined in BKS Iyengar's "Light on
> > Yoga". The
> > > > > > > second to final asana in the first two week course is called
> > > > > > > Halasana (Pgs 216-220 if you have the book). I'm having
> > trouble with
> > > > > > > interlocking my hands and most especially with turning them
> > over.
> > > > > > > Does anyone have a tip or two that will help with this? I'm
> > uncertain
> > > > > > > if it's a matter of simple flexibility or if it's more the
> > case of
> > > > > > > muscle getting in the way. Any advice is welcome.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank-you,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greg M
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS I hope this is the right forum in which to post this.
> > If not, I
> > > > > > > apologize.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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