Discordance

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by jeff


Every moment is mystical...

or for those who prefer the quiet approach...

Mystical = Mundane.

Very true Jeff. Thank you. As long as the mundane is not pushed away for the mystical or the mystical constantly sought routinely for the sake of "collecting" spiritual stuff, because there again is the temptation to be special/different..(which as you know, is ego-driven )

[Bodhi Tree]

quote:Originally posted by kami

quote:Originally posted by jeff


Every moment is mystical...

or for those who prefer the quiet approach...

Mystical = Mundane.

Very true Jeff. Thank you. As long as the mundane is not pushed away for the mystical or the mystical constantly sought routinely for the sake of "collecting" spiritual stuff, because there again is the temptation to be special/different..(which as you know, is ego-driven )

Well said, jeff and kami.

Just to reiterate a splendid AYP teaching (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/428.html - Transformation of Ego)...

It is the ego that is the primary vehicle of enlightenment. Therefore, I find it very wise to regard it as a friend, rather than an enemy. Less resistance that way. More progress. At times when I was younger, I used to go to battle with my ego, but the ego just fought back harder! So, I've just to had to say: "Good little ego, I'm going to pet you and feed you some good food. Here little ego, I have some new food. It is the food of finding miracles in both the mystical and mundane." And little ego has said: "Yes, that tastes good. Please keep feeding me that. That will sustain me and bring me great joy."

[Parallax]

Hi everyone,

Very interesting topic. The thing that comes up for me when reading Kami's initial post was my own tendency when confronted with a thread/topic/question to unconsciously fall into the mode of trying to be a "teacher" in some way or to demonstrate some experience/knowledge that--without actually claiming anything--demonstrates a level of attainment, which can be a very subtle thing. Or to respond in a way that that indicates, "yes I've experienced that too, but I've overcome that, now let me tell you how..."

The thread was a good reminder for me to try to approach these things with a "beginners mind"...staying open, resting in a place of not knowing, being a student instead of wanting to be a teacher. Discussing instead of defending a point-of-view. And there can be great freedom in the "not knowing" and in the not needing to "know". Whatever I think I know today, I'm probably know differently tomorrow

Also it has to do with the fact that I'm lazy, so sometimes its just easier not to bother knowing

Anywhooo...

Love you all!

[chas]

I don't think the roles are the problem, but getting caught up in the role is suffocating (for lack of a better word). I  play teacher role to my kids sometimes, but that doesn't mean that I am or believe myself to be some wise all knowing teacher. If it was the role that was the problem, we would have a lot of problems, wouldn't we?  
Thankfully we all have roles to play, and others play roles to us. Many have been through similar things and are willing to speak/write. In the subject of spirituality in particular, that would be a challenging one to play IMO...with all the ego hunters around, 'teachers' are bound to get shot at.

[CarsonZi]

I agree that the roles are not a problem... who decides how to define "the role" anyway?  For me, the key is motivation... what is the motivation behind my action.  If the motivation is to feel special, to be seen in a specific way, to teach someone something (which indicates that "I am the knower") then there is a problem... I'm identified with a belief in a separate self.  Anytime I attach to the "teacher" or a "knower" or "special" roles etc, Life gives me a severe pee-pee slapping.  Thank God for that!!

Love,
Carson

P.S. Parallax, you're sooooooo lazy.

[mr_anderson]

I agree Chas, in manifest life, we all assume roles, appropriate to the occasion. Being a human being is just a role we are playing, the body a garment, picked up and discarded. What matters is to remember who we are in Truth, even while playing the roles.

This is a great discussion.

It's affected me on two levels:

Firstly, initially on reading there was an inner push toward "defending a point of view". So like you Parallax, this was a fantastic reminder to move toward discussing instead. What happened here is initially quite a strong emotional reaction, accompanied by "defensive" thoughts arose. Thoughts and feelings attempted to contract into a separate self, with an identified point of view to defend. This was beautiful to watch. I just sat down, and breathed calmly, allowing it to happen exactly as it wanted to, with no interference. Then eventually, like a black cloud passing overhead, the contraction abated and there was some sort of release. So thanks Kami for highlighting an area for inquiry for me! I appreciate it! I love to look into those things that are most painful to look at, they are the ones that set you free. It reminds me of that Vigdis Garbarek poem that Carson posted a while ago. Because of this reaction, I held the topic of this post in my heart for a long time, looking to see if it was true for me. However, beyond feeling that perhaps some of my posts could've been misinterpreted as a claim to attainment, and the fact that I sometimes spout direct pointing (just for the love of it, and I love it when other people do it too, because it takes me right to the spot - suddenly noticing and automatically letting go of conditioning) [and maybe I shouldn't bother people with my pointing unless they ask me for it], I don't feel an inner resonance of truth with the discordance idea.

At least, the thoughts and feelings that arise here say they don't see much discord. Of course these thoughts are only one point of view, and ultimately, who cares. I'd also love to be wrong here, because to see my own foolish errors (of which I'm sure there are many) and mis-perceptions is liberating. The feeling is that the idea of discord doesn't resonate with what I've seen from all the people here on AYP who are "generously sharing their experiences" (as Yogani once put it). Despite all the sharing of experiences, I don't see anyone claiming they've made it?? I see people sharing experiences of big openings, really enjoying the freedom, and continuing to fervently practice and keep growing.

Firstly, this very forum we're posting in, as described by Yogani "This forum is for sharing experiences on the road to enlightenment. Seeing milestones as we travel along can encourage us to keep up our practices." I think anyone who shares their experiences is going to risk being criticized for claims to attainment but so be it.

Why am I practicing AYP today? Because I came into the Enlightenment Milestones forum, and I started reading the stuff people had written here. Regular folks, obviously making progress, and having some shifts in perspective and real openings. Kirtanman in particular - his ecstatic posts completely blew my mind. They were also highly instructional and contained great "direct pointing". This is why I believed in AYP, why I practiced, and everyone's generous and open sharing of their experiences inspires and uplifts me. I love to hear when practitioners with a bit of experience are having identity shifts, which whilst often not permanent, and fairly unstable, are important Enlightenment Milestones (not claims to attainment IMO). I love also to hear of people who are just starting out, and seeing their first signs. And everything in between. Even if someone goes a bit wild with their descriptions, having been a bit overexcited by their experience, I'm happy for them while it happens, and I know life will eventually take care of any over-exuberance for them without my doing anything.

Secondly - What is the principle AYP is built on? AYP is both Open Source (meaning everyone contributes with their experience, and shares techniques and advice - this not a subtle egotism of teaching, it's trying to be helpful) and it's also meant to be a sort Spiritual Science - practitioners doing their stuff and then logging their results and sharing them with everyone else. Well, we could all just keep completely silent about our experiences, and never share advice or anything we deem helpful, until in 10 lifetimes we reincarnate as Ramana Maharshi the Second, for fear that sharing our experiences and our own slices of wisdom (which everyone here has) before we have complete and final ego dissolution will establish us in a subtle egotism... I'd rather take the risk of being criticized, or even damaging my own progress (there's no such thing in fact - when you identify with a role, and the ego is feeding off it, eventually that's just another thing that you benefit from seeing and letting go of - the people here are a pretty self-aware bunch and I think everyone is keen to honest with themselves), if it's going to make a valid contribution to the logging of experiences in the open source community that AYP is.

Thirdly - As for claims of attainment, I just don't really see people claiming attainments, sharing experiences yes - but no wild claims out there yet. The only post I've ever seen that came close to sounding a bit like a claim to attainment was Karl's "enlightenment demystified". The title was a bit extreme. But you know what - it really inspired me to keep practicing. And ultimately, I don't think Karl did develop a subtle ego from his post, he doesn't even seem to post here much these days. I'm sure he had a big opening, and it was nice of him to share it, in the Enlightenment Milestones forum which is designed for that purpose.

I think most people share their experiences because they're having happiness and they want to spread it around, not out of a sense of smug superiority or 'having made it'. The very idea leaves a disgustingly bad taste in my mouth: It's so completely contrary to the innocent and ever fresh Joy and loving happiness that I associate with the openings that are happening over the years. There's no superiority in this! This feeling is only happy because its devoid of separation! WRT to sharing advice - Maybe they got some insights that are useful - I've probably learned as much or more from other spiritual practitioners who tried to help me out and share an insight than I have from the various dead sages like Nisargadatta whose quotes I like to read all the time.

It's like if something goes really well in my life one day, I'm going to call my mom and my girlfriend, because I'm super happy and want to share it. It's not because I've got a subtle egotism and I'm deriving a superior identity from my experience of happiness. I'd do the same thing with the constant, freeing and delightful changes that spiritual practices have brought into my life - but unfortunately my mom and my girlfriend would basically think I was talking Chinese.

I dunno, that's my two cents. I love sharing, I love others sharings, I don't see anyone on AYP who has got a real 'claim to attainment' (frankly they'd be busted pretty quickly) or a "I've made it complex (life just kicks the crap of you when you get one of those) and finally AYP actually has a specific forum for and ethos of sharing experiences, and sharing advice and techniques with other practitioners. I don't see anyone here who thinks they have made it. I don't think I have 'made it', the very thought would be instantly seen as erroneous and destructive to happiness. I don't see anyone claiming they have made it. I don't even see Yogani claiming he has. Where then is the discord?

Even outside of AYP, there's a lot of half-baked Advaita teachers around these days, who have a dubious level of ego-dissolution, and mediocre teaching ability. They kind of had a little awakening and became a full-time teacher. But that's all good too - by comparison one knows how to sort the wheat from the chaff. Furthermore, if they have genuinely got some insight, and they are able to help just one person by free up some identification with their efforts, then something good happened. No need to be incarnate perfection: we can leave that to false, rose-tinted memories of dead people. The rest of us will continue being human, trying our best, messing up, learning from it.

[Parallax]

Hey Chas!

How are you my brother?

I don't think roles are a problem; i was more alluding to the attitude/intention that I sometimes bring to these spiritual discussions...am I really open to learning and willing to let go of my preconceived notions or did I come with the intention of demonstrating my level of experience and defending "my" PoV. I would find myself mentally dissecting other people's viewpoints looking for points where I thought they were wrong...which didnt leave space for openness

I recently reread Zen Mind, Beginners Mind and liked the line that was someing like "in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few" . I wanted to be an expert, someone who knew...sometimes I still do

And to be clear I am just speaking to the noticing of my own tendencies with some of these things

I've already said too much

Love ya bro

[Parallax]

Cross-posted Joshji and Carsonji

[mr_anderson]

No worries Parallax-ji

[kami]

Yes I agree with Carson - Parallax, you *are* lazy. And yet, you drip with authenticity and wisdom. You bring up exactly what I've been trying to say, only in a much more elegant way. Thank you.

Bodhi: The issue with ego is most certainly not that it needs to be killed or annihilated. It is the identification as the separate self that is the real issue, not the separate self itself. Even after awakening, we will need to live in the transactional world and play our roles. The difference is that there is no longer a tight and possessive identification with that separate self - even while playing the roles, that ego is "worn" lightly..

No worries Josh - I catch myself wanting to defend my position all the time. It is humbling.. A while ago, Chas and I were in a heated argument about something (I no longer recall why) and I was "righteously indignant" about my position. Finally exasperated, he asked, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be free?" At this, the active ego-mind simply shut up and there was a greater perspective that could manifest.Thank goodness for wise friends like Chas, who are not afraid to call a spade a spade and who will not sugar coat things when appropriate.

Last week, I was teaching and rounding on the inpatient service, and a very sick young woman came in to the ICU - due to multiple underlying conditions it was difficult to figure out what the cause of her acute sickness was. It was interesting to see that all the attending physicians, including me, were quietly going over the case, freely admitting we didn't really know what was going on. But, the residents and fellows just knew; they had elaborate theories, boisterous declarations and heated arguments about why this could only be x, y or z (obviously the attending physicians were complete idiots, according to them). I watched the fellow (doctor in advanced sub specialty training) and the senior resident on my service go at it for a while and finally told them they needed to cool it. There was no sufficient evidence for either of their theories (turned out later they were both wrong and ahem, their attending was right).. Yet, I could empathize with them - it is exactly at this phase of training that arrogance sets in. Only when we have been in practice for a while does humility return. Not that different from the spiritual path.

What seems true to me at the moment is that enlightenment/self-realization or even great spiritual advancement means nothing if our "house isn't in order", where we continue to have hang-ups about relationships, intimacy, love, poverty/not having enough money, co-workers, cancer, parents, brother, sister, healthcare, government, policy, gluten, whatever. It is so easy to try to separate the two - a "spiritual" side with mystical powers or knowledge and a "non spiritual" side with a whole closet of "stuff", and bypass or glaze over all those parts of ourselves, make elaborate and very "spiritual" excuses for them or to not acknowledge them at all. There is simply no aspect that can be ignored or disowned simply because it doesn't neatly fit into our idea of spiritual attainment. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. And the pudding is whether we live our lives in complete integrity, baring it all.

The more I open to this, the more I marvel at Yogani's simple teaching of: do the practices, go about your life's activities, and don't focus so much on scenery. Such profound wisdom!

[Bodhi Tree]

I'm going to suggest that Mr. Anderson run for President. We need a man of that caliber at the helm. LOL. I'm just semi-kidding, but really Josh, your post above is crisp, clear, and skips like a smooth stone skimming across a placid lake. Like everything else, these words will sink to the bottom of The Ocean of Pure Bliss Consciousness, where all vibrations originate from, and where all is destined to return. Infinite depth!

[mr_anderson]

Bodhi: I'll start preparing my campaign lol.
Yes, I was a little overwhelmed with an ecstatic state yesterday

Kami:

quote:What seems true to me at the moment is that enlightenment/self-realization or even great spiritual advancement means nothing if our "house isn't in order", where we continue to have hang-ups about relationships, intimacy, love, poverty/not having enough money, co-workers, cancer, parents, brother, sister, healthcare, government, policy, gluten, whatever. It is so easy to try to separate the two - a "spiritual" side with mystical powers or knowledge and a "non spiritual" side with a whole closet of "stuff", and bypass or glaze over all those parts of ourselves, make elaborate and very "spiritual" excuses for them or to not acknowledge them at all. There is simply no aspect that can be ignored or disowned simply because it doesn't neatly fit into our idea of spiritual attainment. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. And the pudding is whether we live our lives in complete integrity, baring it all.

Absolutely agree with you here.

Love all you guys,

Josh

[chas]

quote:Originally posted by Parallax

Hey Chas!

How are you my brother?

I don't think roles are a problem; i was more alluding to the attitude/intention that I sometimes bring to these spiritual discussions...am I really open to learning and willing to let go of my preconceived notions or did I come with the intention of demonstrating my level of experience and defending "my" PoV. I would find myself mentally dissecting other people's viewpoints looking for points where I thought they were wrong...which didnt leave space for openness

I recently reread Zen Mind, Beginners Mind and liked the line that was someing like "in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts mind there are few" . I wanted to be an expert, someone who knew...sometimes I still do

And to be clear I am just speaking to the noticing of my own tendencies with some of these things

I've already said too much

Love ya bro

Hi Parallax

You were/are very clear, my apologies for the brevity of my previous post. I have some issues with communication, especially while typing on my phone[] No disagreement here. What you said is similar/same as what I meant about getting caught up. I agree with what you said, but wanted to throw the role point out in addition. As with you, I'm noticing my tendencies, and in my case, in addition to what you've pointed out very well, there can be a tendency to see an issue and then over correct the other way or draw some inaccurate conclusion(s), etc.. anyhow, just wanted to clarify that. It looks like we are on the same page. Hope all is well with you.