Vegetarian or non-Vegetarian

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by Kirtanman

And I agree fully with you, regarding that we're all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.

Kirtanman,

I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP.  I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another (oops, 'one another', dvaita ).  And yes, I know that we are on the same side.

Regards,
Ram.

[amoux]

Looking at this from here, it seems to me there is only one question worth asking about the eating of animals and fish:

Is it kind?

Paul McCartney is credited with saying "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be vegetarian".

It's not a question of whether one can realise enlightenment (or whatever term is the flavour du jour) - without being vegetarian, it seems clear that it can be done.  But still, the question remains:

Is it kind?

[Christi]

Hi Kirtanman,

Thanks for the answers. So would you agree that there are some forms of behaviour that can be useful to someone who is practicing yoga? If Ramana Maharshi is right then vegetarianism could be one of them?

One more question...

 

quote:quote:
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And these lofty advaitic notions are not useful for every one and every situation in my opinion.


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I understand. I respectfully disagree.

"Advaitic notions" are some of the clearest indicators, regarding the wholeness we actually are, and so, there can be a deep resonance with them; they can be a powerful aspect of the map home, even at early stages.

What makes you believe that "Advaitic notions... can be a powerful aspect of the map home... even at early stages"? Do you have any evidence that it is true?

Christi

[Christi]

quote:Originally posted by amoux

Looking at this from here, it seems to me there is only one question worth asking about the eating of animals and fish:

Is it kind?

Paul McCartney is credited with saying "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be vegetarian".

It's not a question of whether one can realise enlightenment (or whatever term is the flavour du jour) - without being vegetarian, it seems clear that it can be done.  But still, the question remains:

Is it kind?

Hi Amoux,

I think that is certainly something which we should consider. Is it kind? The animals themselves are so often left out of the debate on vegetarianism, and it often tends to focus more on health issues for humans.

A sign of the depth of the fall perhaps?

Christi

[Kirtanman]

Hi Christi,

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Kirtanman,

Thanks for the answers. So would you agree that there are some forms of behaviour that can be useful to someone who is practicing yoga? If Ramana Maharshi is right then vegetarianism could be one of them?

Yes.



I appreciate the way you phrased your question - which allowed me to answer in the affirmative.

"Can be useful" - Yes, definitely.

In fact, "net net" - it might be a powerful enough resource and support for the body-mind, prior to realization, that's it's worth at least seriously considering.

I never seriously considered it - but for all I know, I might have made things a bit easier on myself, if I had.

My comments in this thread weren't so much tied to vegetarianism per se, but more about the conceptual bondage we can create when we make an empirical right or wrong out of something.

To say "this way is absolutely right, and that way is absolutely wrong" simply causes thinking-mind to constrict around itself in ways that are essentially counter-productive to yoga (the practice and the result).

It's not the behavior that's of consummate importance - it's how much, or how little artificial conceptuality is utilized in evaluating our behavior (or that of others).

As Yogani says in various ways - a powerful key is simply to be easy with it all; that's all I was saying.

quote:
One more question...

 

quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And these lofty advaitic notions are not useful for every one and every situation in my opinion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I understand. I respectfully disagree.

"Advaitic notions" are some of the clearest indicators, regarding the wholeness we actually are, and so, there can be a deep resonance with them; they can be a powerful aspect of the map home, even at early stages.

What makes you believe that "Advaitic notions... can be a powerful aspect of the map home... even at early stages"? Do you have any evidence that it is true?

Christi

Not a lot, so far - but enough to make that statement.

Especially on Facebook, a lot of the discussions take place with people from all levels of spiritual practice, or lack thereof, and some of the more straightforward advaitic teachings regarding mind, concepts, memory, imagination, etc. --- seem to be fairly easily understood by many people in ways that seem to help their clarity, which can only help to abbreviate their sadhana, I would say.

And, by the way, when I say "advaita" - I'm not talking about philosophy, but rather pragmatic tips concerning removing barriers to awareness of wholeness (aka advaita, non-duality) that's always already here.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[amoux]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

I think that is certainly something which we should consider. Is it kind? The animals themselves are so often left out of the debate on vegetarianism, and it often tends to focus more on health issues for humans.

A sign of the depth of the fall perhaps?

Christi - 'the fall' isn't ringing any bells with me, unless you mean the Fall of Man?

Firstly, though, I agree with the general feeling that the decision to be vegetarian or not is a personal one.  I'm vegan, as mentioned above, and married to a meat-eater.  That choice doesn't affect my love for my spouse in any way at all.  That being said, I do have a few observations to make.

As to considering animals, yes indeed, we need to do so.  So let me be an advocate for them:

Animals are sentient beings.  Biologically, they are our relatives - we have the same source code  Would we eat the dead body of a family member?  Maybe a distant cousin that we didn't see that often?  Is the idea not repugnant?  The wonder (to me) is that it is not equally repugnant to eat the flesh of another sentient being.

The commodification of animals, raised as a cash crop to kill and eat, when there are so many alternatives for our nourishment, seems to me indicative of a deep chasm of separation, and a non-recognition of the oneness of life.  The way we exploit animals as a food source is a peculiarly cruel form of enslavement (with no possibility of manumission).

So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it.  And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.  

Getting off my soapbox now

[Christi]

Hi Amoux,

 

quote:Christi - 'the fall' isn't ringing any bells with me, unless you mean the Fall of Man?

Yes, I was referring to the "Fall of Man".

 

quote:So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.

That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.

Christi

[Christi]

Hi Amoux,

p.s.

The Genesis account of human meat eating describes humans as originally being vegetarian and only beginning to eat meat after the great flood when they were punished for their sins against God.

This is Genesis 1:29 and 1:30 from before the flood:

" Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.  And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so."

And this is the account from after the flood: (Genesis 9:2 and 9:3):

"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

Hence my reference to the fall.

Christi

[Christi]

Hi Kirtanman,

 

quote:Not a lot, so far - but enough to make that statement.

Especially on Facebook, a lot of the discussions take place with people from all levels of spiritual practice, or lack thereof, and some of the more straightforward advaitic teachings regarding mind, concepts, memory, imagination, etc. --- seem to be fairly easily understood by many people in ways that seem to help their clarity, which can only help to abbreviate their sadhana, I would say.

And, by the way, when I say "advaita" - I'm not talking about philosophy, but rather pragmatic tips concerning removing barriers to awareness of wholeness (aka advaita, non-duality) that's always already here.

Thanks for clarifying all that.

Christi

[amoux]

quote:Originally posted by Christie

quote:So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.

That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.

Christi

Well said - I could not agree more.

And thanks for the clarification about the fall

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by Christi
And this is the account from after the flood: (Genesis 9:2 and 9:3):

"The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

Hence my reference to the fall.

Christi

I remember watching a documentary on Discovery channel (based on a true story) where a group got stranded on a lifeboat in the ocean.

A few weeks later they became hallucinated / crazy with hunger and started eating each other.

I wonder if we all fell the same way during the big flood.

[Kirtanman]

Hi Ram,

quote:Originally posted by rkishan

quote:Originally posted by Kirtanman

And I agree fully with you, regarding that we're all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we're all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.

Kirtanman,

I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP.  I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another.

Thanks for the kind words, I concur.




Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Christi



Thanks for clarifying all that.

Christi

Hi Christi - you're welcome.

[amoux]

Very interesting recent findings about brain differences between vegetarians, vegans and omnivores:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0010847

[manigma]

I watched 'War of the Worlds' (Tom Cruise) yesterday and it reminded me of this thread.

Aliens planted us (Humans) on this planet and once the population was sufficient, they came down for harvesting.

The earth looked like a bluddy human poultry farm. Aliens were putting humans in cages and drinking our blood/marrow like juice.

Sounds gross?