Vegetarian or non-Vegetarian

[Shivoham]

http://eating-wisdom.blogspot.com/
Is non-vegetarian food Prohibited for a Hindu?

"Svayambhu, the Self-Existent [Supreme Reality] himself created animals for the sake of sacrifices; sacrifices have been
instituted for the good of this whole world; hence the slaughtering of beasts for sacrifices is not slaughtering in the ordinary
sense of the word"
- Manu Smriti


It is a subject of great debate that if the consumption non-vegetarian food is permitted by Ancient Hindu texts.

There are many verses in Vedas, Puranas and ayurvedic texts that both support and condemn the consumption of meat. It may look contradictory and confusing. But a close look reveal the wisdom behind.


The only creature that need to refer books to know what to eat is Human.
Its because we live so unnaturally and unconsciously, conditioned so badly by society. We have even forgot the original purpose of eating. Many food we eat is for satisfying tongue and even food is used in the society to display people's vanity.
To know what is right for our basic needs, only thing we need to do is to just become simple, natural and live consciously.
come to the basic first.

The Paleo man
Go back to the jungle, mentally. See yourself naked like any other animal. Become hungry, search for food.
Your first option will be fruits and vegetables, because its easy to collect. No much physical work is needed to do that.Also you dont need to hurt other animals. But what if they are not available enough?
What will you eat if you are living in a desert or a place covered with snow? Unfortunately neither Manu is your neighbor nor you have a vedic library to inquire about what will you eat in that situation. You have two options:
You can starve and become weak so that you can become a food for beasts or you can become a beast and hunt animals to survive.
Here you are eating for survival. Which is natural (basic)
If this is a sin, then all meat eating animals are also sinners.Then thats god's mistake.
Here your Karma is neutral

The Spiritual Paleo man
Ok.. Now see yourself as more evolved spiritual person who have a purpose in life.But still staying in jungle naked (You do not need to live in a civilized society, live in a house or eat rice to become spiritual).
You are a scholar, have knowledge of karma. You have a goal, you know the path and obstacles to the path.(Again you dont need to live in a civilized society for that). You have changed, but not the situations out side. Availability of food is same. What will you do if you have to hunt for survival?
Of-course , now you have more concern about other creatures and the negative effect that animal food on your consciousness. But Without having enough energy, you wont be able to meditate or even pray or even think. Without that you will not be able to reach the goal of human life or even survive.
When you kill an animal, It gets an other higher form of life. So have no worry about animals. We only need to worry about us.
Your destiny is governed by energy. You gain energy from food and air.
A spiritual person eat food with a Yajna Bhava, the energy obtained from that food goes to higher centers and will be used for expansion of consciousness

Here you are eating for the survival of your body and also for attaining the goal of life.
First one is neutral and second is Highly Positive.
Your intentions are good any way.
Here also there is no sin.

Civilized Man
Now become a civilized man, who does lots of artificial things.
You have a home, Does Farming, wear clothes and have money.
You eat cereals which were originally the food of the birds. But you do not like them coming to your farm and eating your crops. You think that this much of part of the earth is yours. You have forgotten the reality that not a single grain of sand is nobodies own.You are in illusion. Agricultural farming is the basic foundation of your civilization. If the foundation itself is based on a great illusion, what about the things that grew up on it!!
When your base is associated an illusion, whatever you do standing on that also will becomes associated with illusions. This creates layers and layers of illusions and you will become totally unconscious.You will not know why you are doing a certain thing. You eat , sleep, mate, study and work unconsciously.
Now you have animals at home. You give them food. Their products are your food.Once they are become old, will you kill them or take care of them?(about cows)
When you where in jungle you used to eat for survival. But now you eat also for enjoying. You have discovered complicated recipes for that purpose. Now the intention of eating have diverted from its real purpose.
Eating for sensual indulgence have following problems:
When our intentions of an act is directed towards sensual enjoyment,its the lower brain circuits that take control. If this is continued, the lower circuits becomes predominent and our will power will be suppressed. We become the slave of our senses. Then suffering is inevitable.
A person of this kind will eat unnecessary food which he doesn't need for the health of his body and become physically and mentally ill. So, this attitude is a sin.
Even vegetarian food eaten in that attitude is sinful,Then what to say about killing animals!!!!
Animal food contain animal hormones that can contract our consciousness which is opposite to the expansion of consciousness experienced through spiritual practices.
Those who eat animal food for satisfying their tongue have a tendency to consume it everyday. They become addicted to that taste.You know what will happen then. They will become the children of suffering.
Here the karma is negative, Full of sins

-The paleo man didnt have to read books to know what to eat, because he ate for the real purpose of eating. He ate everything moderately.

-The spiritual paleo man also cannot make mistake in eating. He can progress spiritually fast with a balanced body.

-Civilized man can make lots of mistakes in eating. But he can correct it by adapting the diet of paleo man and living a simple and conscious life.

In Vedic texts, Puranas and ayurveda. You will see verses that supports and also condemn meat eating. We make big debates asking "Did Rama ate meat or Rama meat ate?"
If you know the critaria of eating meat. You know what to do.


"Svayambhu, the Self-Existent [Supreme Reality] himself created animals for the sake of sacrifices; sacrifices have been
instituted for the good of this whole world; hence the slaughtering of beasts for sacrifices is not slaughtering in the ordinary
sense of the word." - Manu Smriti

What is sacrifice(Yajna)? what is Good for the whole world?
Ultimately the good for the whole world is, when Dharma radiates in the world, when every person in this world act towards the goal of his life and bath in the bliss of the self.

There are two types of yajnas:
1.Yajna done as rituals to radiate spiritual energy to the wold for elevating human consciousness..
2.Any act by a person that is directed towards self realization,done with yajna bhava(attitude) ie. the act dedicated towards the will of god, by surrendering his personal desires.
This is also called Karma yoga.

The second one is higher form of yajna because it is the aim of the first yajna.
The highest form of yajna happens automatically in self-realized jnanis without any effort or act of surrendering.
Any act done by a jnani(Gyani or sage) creates no sin for him because he is completely detached from this body and mind. His body goes on doing its work according to its destiny.

When an animal is killed or eaten with this attitude it does not create any sin.
After-all its not the act but the intention of the act that is sin or virtue.
according to Tantra and yoga there are six chief sins
The six chief sins are kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, matsaryya – lust, anger, covetousness, ignorance or delusion, pride and envy.

[tonightsthenight]

I eat meat.  And i do it because my body wants it.  If that ever changes, so will my diet.  

[manigma]

Eating meat appears violent to me.  Its an act of unawareness.

Its unbelievable that we being a human, still kill an innocent living being just to add some strength to our bodies.  By eating meat we can probably become more strong and live a few years more.  But even by killing thousands of animals if we live a few years more, what do we gain by that extra life?

It does not make any sense.

I know plants also have life but we do not kill them.  We just eat the fruit that the tree provides. The tree remains.

But killing a chicken, a cow or an animal just to satisfy your old animal instincts is a pure act of unawareness.

The more aware a person becomes, the more peaceful he will become.  He will become vegetarian, quit drinking, smoking, unaware sexual behaviour etc automatically.

This is the price we pay to become a real human.  And its worth it.

[Shivoham]

Manu Smriti
CHAPTER V
Lawful and Forbidden Foods
1. The sages, having heard the duties of a Snataka thus declared, spoke to great-souled Bhrigu, who sprang from fire:
2. How can Death have power over Brahmins who know the sacred science – the Veda – and who fulfill their duties as they
have been explained by thee, O Lord?
3. Righteous Bhrigu, the son of Manu, thus answered the great sages: Hear in punishment of what faults Death seeks to
shorten the lives of Brahmins!
4. Through neglect of the Veda-study, through deviation from the rule of conduct, through being remiss in the fulfillment of
duties, and through faults committed by eating forbidden food, Death becomes eager to shorten the lives of Brahmins.
21. Once a year a Brahmin must perform a Krikkhra penance in order to atone for unintentionally eating forbidden food; but
for intentionally eating forbidden food, he must perform the penances prescribed specially.
28. The Lord of creatures (Prajapati) created this whole world to be the sustenance of the vital spirit; both the immovable and
the movable creation is the food of the vital spirit.
33. A twice-born man who knows the law must not eat meat except in conformity with the law; for if he has eaten it
unlawfully, he will, unable to save himself, be eaten after death by his victims.
39. Svayambhu, the Self-Existent [Supreme Reality] himself created animals for the sake of sacrifices; sacrifices have been
instituted for the good of this whole world; hence the slaughtering of beasts for sacrifices is not slaughtering in the ordinary
sense of the word.
40. Herbs, trees, cattle, birds, and other animals that have been destroyed for sacrifices are reincarnated in higher
existences.
42. A twice-born man who, knowing the true meaning of the Veda, slays an animal for these purposes causes both himself
and the animal to enter a most blessed state.
43. A twice-born man of virtuous disposition, whether he dwells in his own house, with a teacher, or in the forest, must never,
even in times of distress, cause an injury to any creature which [injury] is not sanctioned by the Veda.
46. He who does not seek to cause the sufferings of bonds and death to living creatures, but desires the good of all beings,
obtains endless bliss.
48. Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures, and injury to sentient beings is detrimental to the attainment
of heavenly bliss; let him therefore shun the use of meat.
49. Having well considered the disgusting origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying corporeal beings, let him
entirely abstain from eating flesh.
51. He who permits the slaughter of an animal, he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells meat, he who cooks it,
he who serves it up, and he who eats it, must all be considered as the slayers of the animal.
52. There is no greater sinner than that man who, though not worshipping the gods or the manes, seeks to increase the bulk
of his own flesh by [consuming] the flesh of other beings.
54. By subsisting on pure fruit and roots, and by eating food fit for ascetics in the forest, one does not gain so great a reward
as by entirely avoiding the use of flesh.
44
56. There is no sin in eating meat, in drinking spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created
beings; but abstention brings great rewards.

[yogani]

Hi All:

Here is a lesson summarizing the AYP approach to diet, which avoids the extremes on either side of the debate that can actually retard spiritual progress if over-emphasized and/or forced on others: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/305.html

As with so many things in spiritual practice, one size does not fit all. Tolerance for varying approaches to diet in the community of practitioners is therefore encouraged. This provides everyone the opportunity to evolve according to their own process of purification and opening, which is the fastest path.

The guru is in you.

[tonightsthenight]

quote:
The more aware a person becomes, the more peaceful he will become.  He will become vegetarian, quit drinking, smoking, unaware sexual behaviour etc automatically.

Hey Manigma,

with respect to your opinion, i completely disagree.

yes, peace is a part of increasing bliss and awareness.  but i don't quite see how vegetables, tobbacco, alcohol and sex come into play here.  in fact jesus said it is not what one puts into his mouth but what comes out.

in my opinion, abstaining from meat/sex/drugs is a choice, not a requirement.  we are challenged by spirit to refine ourselves, and if we don't do it voluntarily, then the K purifies us until we submit.  So spirit is actually the arbiter here, not you or me or anyone else.

Also, i should point out that your version of vegetarianism is actually frutarianism.  That is, vegetarians DO kill plants.  And animals besides, as these animals live in fields that are planted and when the harvesters come, guess what happens to the animals?

I only point this out to demonstrate that your opinion may not be as well thought out as you might admit.  I have a lot of respect for you so do not take this the wrong way

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

Eating meat appears violent to me.  Its an act of unawareness.

Its unbelievable that we being a human, still kill an innocent living being just to add some strength to our bodies.  By eating meat we can probably become more strong and live a few years more.  But even by killing thousands of animals if we live a few years more, what do we gain by that extra life?

It does not make any sense.

I know plants also have life but we do not kill them.  We just eat the fruit that the tree provides. The tree remains.

But killing a chicken, a cow or an animal just to satisfy your old animal instincts is a pure act of unawareness.

The more aware a person becomes, the more peaceful he will become.  He will become vegetarian, quit drinking, smoking, unaware sexual behaviour etc automatically.

This is the price we pay to become a real human.  And its worth it.

Hi Manigma,

Here's what Nisargadatta Maharaj has to say about this general topic:


Q: My body influences me deeply. In more than one way my body is my destiny. My character, my moods, the nature of my reactions, my desires and fears -- inborn or acquired -- they are all based on the body. A little alcohol, some drug or other and all changes. Until the drug wears off I become another man.

M: All this happens because you think yourself to be the body. realise your real self and even drugs will have no power over you.

Q: You smoke?

M: My body kept a few habits which may as well continue till it dies. There is no harm in them.

Q: You eat meat?

M: I was born among meat-eating people and my children are eating meat. I eat very little -- and make no fuss.

Q: Meat-eating implies killing.

M: Obviously. I make no claims of consistency. You think absolute consistency is possible; prove it by example. Don't preach what you do not practise.

And here are a few pertinent words from Ramana Maharshi:


M.: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty.

D.: Are there restrictions for the realised man in a similar manner?

M.: No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes.

Adyashanti actually picked a recent office location per its proximity to his favorite fast food restaurant (Happy Hound, a hot dog place in Los Gatos, CA).

Jed McKenna writes of eating meat, in his books.

I've made some jokes about my own glaringly not-sattvic diet in the past (I haven't eaten meat since ............ roughly the time I started this post).



Very Seriously: kudos to you for attempting to deepen your understanding in all areas; your sincerity will surely see you through.

However, please don't get caught in the web of conflicting ideas (vegetarian, or not; celibate or not; this philosophy, that philosophy, etc.) ... these things essentially have nothing at all to do with realization, no matter how many texts may say they do.

All that really has to do with realization is releasing the illusion of the limited self.

It dissolves automatically when we release all investment in ideas, and become truly willing to let life show us what is simply true and actual.

All wrongness is a conceptual idea, an evaluation, and therefore utterly meaningless to realizing truth.

As Abhinavagupta said:

"Neither accept nor reject; simply rest in the true nature of the Self."

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[manigma]

Our actions reflect our being.

With great power comes great responsibility. (Spiderman)

So does with Enlightenment.

What you see and hear from the bodies of Nisargadatta, Jed, Adya and other Enlightened beings is done/said by their conditioned personalities.  The real being is gone!

See my post: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=8030

I just shared my views based on my own experience. I loved to eat meat a few years ago.  But now there is no desire.  It simply makes no sense.

My emphasis is on being more and more aware.  If you can eat, drink, smoke, have sex etc while being totally aware... all good.

[tonightsthenight]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

Our actions reflect our being.

With great power comes great responsibility. (Spiderman)

So does with Enlightenment.

What you see and hear from the bodies of Nisargadatta, Jed, Adya and other Enlightened beings is done/said by their conditioned personalities.  The real being is gone!

See my post: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=8030

I just shared my views based on my own experience. I loved to eat meat a few years ago.  But now there is no desire.  It simply makes no sense.

My emphasis is on being more and more aware.  If you can eat, drink, smoke, have sex etc while being totally aware... all good.

no worries manigma,

i think more than a few of us have been at the stage.  extremism is part of the path because it teaches us to stay in the middle!

remember, you are your body, whether you like it or not.  "the flesh is weak" ... it was born that way!  give the body what it wants, but give Spirit what it wants too!

[Shivoham]

We must only follow our conscience to decide to eat meat or not.
If I feel bad to kill an animal, I have no right to eat meat of an animal killed by somebody. If I want to eat I must be ready to kill also. If my heart is against killing, I must not eat.
Our conscience very well knows the level of evolution of our mind and intellect.According to that It decides what we must do.
In a certain stage of evolution we feel sad about killing animals for food. Our heart wont let us do that. But it may change as we become more natural

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight
remember, you are your body, whether you like it or not.  "the flesh is weak" ... it was born that way!  give the body what it wants, but give Spirit what it wants too!

The body is just like a spacesuit that I was born wearing.  I am not the body.

The body is required by consciousness.  I am not consciousness either.

I am both and more.

Its not who I am underneath. But what I do... that defines me. - Batman

[tonightsthenight]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight
remember, you are your body, whether you like it or not.  "the flesh is weak" ... it was born that way!  give the body what it wants, but give Spirit what it wants too!

The body is just like a spacesuit that I was born wearing.  I am not the body.

The body is required by consciousness.  I am not consciousness either.

I am both and more.

Its not who I am underneath. But what I do... that defines me. - Batman

you are right of course!

I like the spacesuit analogy!

But it is true that the "you" here, right now, is both body/soul/spirit ... so in this incarnation, you are in fact your body

its the same as your persona.  Your persona in this life is real, but it is not eternal.  but it plays a part in everything you do in this life!

can't get away from the body until you are dead.  until then, it has needs too and it must be taken care of

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight
But it is true that the "you" here, right now, is both body/soul/spirit ... so in this incarnation, you are in fact your body

True and not true.

Its like an illusion.

When you are asleep and dreaming, you can not distinguish that you are dreaming.  If you figure out somehow that you are dreaming, the dream ends immediately.

Everything looks real and true in a dream.  So many strange things happen in your dream but you take all of them as real.  Only when you wake up you realize that you were dreaming.

See this post for a better explanation:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=7740#70331

(I have written several posts on AYP.  But in reality I have never typed a single word.)

quote:
can't get away from the body until you are dead.

I die every morning.

But get resurrected.

[tonightsthenight]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight
But it is true that the "you" here, right now, is both body/soul/spirit ... so in this incarnation, you are in fact your body

True and not true.

Its like an illusion.

When you are asleep and dreaming, you can not distinguish that you are dreaming.  If you figure out somehow that you are dreaming, the dream ends immediately.

Everything looks real and true in a dream.  So many strange things happen in your dream but you take all of them as real.  Only when you wake up you realize that you were dreaming.

See this post for a better explanation:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=7740#70331

(I have written several posts on AYP.  But in reality I have never typed a single word.)

quote:
can't get away from the body until you are dead.

I die every morning.

But get resurrected.

Look at it however you want, Manigma.

It really makes me smile when people talk about how life is an illusion, or its not really real, or the body isn't real.  

I just don't see it that way. Everything is real!

All the rest of that hogwash is just philosophical masturbation, and i don't accept a word of it.

This type of thinking probably comes from the confusing text of ancient regions.  We figure, if something is true it must be secretive, or in a parable.  So we try to "mystery-iorize" our ideas.

Let's face it.  Life is true.  And be done with it.


The important thing to learn is that the body is not eternal, it lives and dies as does any other creature on this planet.  Yes, there is an infinite life and consciousness in our midst.  Be glad!  Be we are that consciousness, right now! That is the good news of the bible dude.  

So you can keep on talking in riddles, or just say what you mean.  Either way, glad to have you here at these forums

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight
The important thing to learn is that the body is not eternal, it lives and dies as does any other creature on this planet.

And so will this planet and this universe.

What you call life is just one single beat of my heart... one single beat!

Call it riddle or whatever you like.  I deny anything to be real that appears and disappears. That lives and dies. I accept only that to be real which remains forever. And I am that.