Ecstatic radiance?

[emc]

Ah, thanks meg, I am not familiar with the sanskrit terms, and seldom bother to look them up. I just sort of miss the messages when too many sanskrit terms are used.

I find much of the thread being about perception and experience of the world, not how people perceive a person with much ecstatic radiance. The persons I have met who have come far have no special sensuality around them that I would say is extraordinary. On the contrary, they have been very skilled in being able to control the sexual/sensual quality of energy they spread around them, almost giving a feeling of being totally neutral. They have no need to be sensual or sexy in clothing or behaviour.

The reason I wonder is because in for example one kind of Osho mediation I have learned that they have one practice that aims at "letting your sensuality loose". In groups they start behaving sensually toward eachother, and I wonder if that is a misconception from Osho himself or perhaps more likely, his followers, or if such "outer" practices in sensuality really increase your "inner sensuality"? Or perhaps the practice has a totally different aim? I feel an intuitive repulsion against such practices, feeling it is something that would rather give a kick from the "outer world", strenghtening the notion that "I can only get some "feel good"-feelings with help from the outside - I don't have it in myself", and additionally add to fixation of input from outer senses or dependency on other's energies.

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by emc

May I ask if the ecstatic radiance that develops is related in any way to the words "inner sensuality" that is used in samyama?

Has ecstatic radiance anything to do with OUTER sensuality and sexual attraction?

Has the samyama inner sensuality anything to do with developing OUTER sensuality and sexual attraction in a "samsara" style?

Hi EMC:

Yes, the samyama sutra "inner sensuality" is for promoting pratyahara, which is merging sensuality (all the senses) with inner silence. This is part of the process of refinement of sensory perception being discussed here.

While there can be some external sexual energy mixed in with this along the way (a transitional experience), sexuality itself is also being refined to divine expression through our practices, which is what is behind the rise of ecstatic conductivity, ecstatic radiance, and eventually the direct perception of the misty luminous character of bliss consciousness emanating from all things (the shine). And we are That.

So none of this really has to do with expressing or exploiting earth-plane sexuality, if that is your question, any more than the lightness sutra has to do with physically flying across the sky.

We have much bigger fish to fry within, and this wonderful discussion topic gives a taste of it.

The guru is in you.

[Doc]

Here's an artistic rendering of Moses in Ecstatic Radiance upon descending the mountain from God's Sacred Presence....!

www.art.net/TheGallery/Vision/2Moses1.jpg


Baruch Shem Moshe La-Olam! Amin.

Doc

[Manipura]

Doc - When Moses came down from the mountain he was said to have temporary horns which symbolized the light of wisdom that he had received there.  One of the few depictions of this in art is Michelangelo's Moses in the Church of St. Peter in Rome.

[Doc]

Meg:

That's correct. I just like the first picture I posted because I am inclined to believe that a visible 'Radiance' of the intensity attributed to the appearance of Moses...so bright that it was necessary for him to cover his head and face with a veil in order for the people to even look at him...would likely have emanated from all around his head, if not also his entire body, rather than emanating only as two horn shaped shafts of light.  

But nonetheless, even though these depictions don't seem to match the blinding intensity of 'Radiance' Moses was said to have, here's a few renderings of what the horn shaped radiance you referred to may have looked like:

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/culture/Art/TO_ArtOverview/JewishPainters_files/image002.jpg

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00157/images/jewishmoses1.jpg

http://members.becon.org/~choly/moses.jpg

Doc

[emc]

quote:Yogani wrote: So none of this really has to do with expressing or exploiting earth-plane sexuality, if that is your question, any more than the lightness sutra has to do with physically flying across the sky.

We have much bigger fish to fry within, and this wonderful discussion topic gives a taste of it.

Thank you. I need to hear that in this explicit way, because I encounter so many "sprititual" people who, and find so many internet pages that promote expression and exploitation of sexuality as a means to reach enlightenment. Thank you. It is again a feedback to me that my intuition on them being out sailing somewhere else is accurate.

[Christi]

Hi Emc
 

quote:Thank you. I need to hear that in this explicit way, because I encounter so many "sprititual" people who, and find so many internet pages that promote expression and exploitation of sexuality as a means to reach enlightenment. Thank you. It is again a feedback to me that my intuition on them being out sailing somewhere else is accurate.

I think if people are exploiting sexuality, then that is obviously not going to get them anywhere very fast. But expressing sexuality can be very beautiful, depending on how we go about it. And it certainly can be a major boost to our spiritual path if we go about it in the right way, which is what the Tantra lessons are all about.
But I don't think that we need get too caught up here on the sexual aspect. I don't feel that this (ecstatic radiance) is really about sex. It feels to me it is more about love (or Love[]), and about the expansion of silence. It was when I started feeling these two things in a big way that I started to feel it effecting people around me.
Then the way it effects others, depends a lot on them (their Bakhti, as Yogani says), and where they are at in their journey. They may feel sexual energy, or Love, or maybe other emotions (I don't know), or bliss. I once felt it coming from someone I was a few feet away, and it felt like a drop of nectar fell from somewhere inside me, about 2 feet above the top of my head, and landed in the centre of my head, exploding outwards as an incredibly sweet silver/ gold light. Work that one out if you can[].
So someone would only feel sexual energies in the presence of someone radiating ecstacy, if that is where they are at, or what is coming up for them next as their experience of the universe becomes more refined. If Love is coming up next, that is what they will feel. We can of course, feel many things at once... just to make the whole trip more fun.
This is just how it feels to me right now. I hope someone (Yogani/ Katrine) will correct me if I have got this wrong.

Christi

[Wolfgang]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

So someone would only feel sexual energies in the presence of someone radiating ecstacy, if that is where they are at, or what is coming up for them next as their experience of the universe becomes more refined. If Love is coming up next, that is what they will feel. We can of course, feel many things at once... just to make the whole trip more fun.

Hi Christi,

for me this is right on target,
and for me I am always curious to find out where is the other person
on his/her path (if I can find out, I am then able to help more)
and also to check out where am I on my path.

[Christi]

Hi Wolfgang,
Thanks for the reply.
 

quote:Hi Christi,

for me this is right on target,
and for me I am always curious to find out where is the other person
on his/her path (if I can find out, I am then able to help more)
and also to check out where am I on my path.

I don't know if it is possible to find out where someone else is on his/her path, or to know where we are on ours. I realize that in my last post I made it sound like there was a kind of spiritual ladder, with sexual energy at the bottom, and love and bliss somewhere towards the top. I realized when I wrote it that that was a gross over-simplification of a much more complex process of spiritual transformation. I believe it was Rama Krishna who said that enlightenment was like having an orgasm in every cell of your body in every moment. So if that's not sexual, then what is?
Yogani has also said that at some point we will be experiencing a continuous orgasm, and I didn't see him mention that it ever stops. So that's pretty sexy too.
But on the question of working out where someone else is on the path, I don't feel that if someone is experiencing waves of divine love flowing out of their heart most of the time, that we can say, "Oh, that person is at such and such a stage on their spiritual path..." . I guess if we can attempt to say anything about someone elses' level of spiritual development, or about our own, then it would be based on the degree to which they (or we) have dissolved. When there is a great deal of dissolution present in the being, then the (Divine) Self Shines through, and it is obvious to everyone.
Of course, if it is so difficult to tell where someone else is at (unless they are at the Permanently Shining with Divine Love stage), then it is very hard to know how to help someone else (or even to help them at all), when it comes to spiritual development. This is a subject that I am very interested in as I feel a strong desire to help others on the spiritual path, as I am sure you and many of us do. After following this thread though, I think I would agree with Katrine when she said to not worry about anyone else too much, and be the love that you are.
I'm not saying "don't help anyone" here, because that is how it might sound. Katrine is still putting wonderful posts on this forum, and helping many people in many ways. I feel it's more like, if I think I am at such and such a stage on the path, and someone else is at another stage, and I am helping them, then I am still lost in the dream. I am still playing the same game (albeit on a more subtle spiritual level) of identification, labelling, judging, and being the actor, in this case the "helper".
It is of course possible that Katrine knows that she isn't helping anyone else when she posts on this forum, because she knows that there isn't anyone else or anything other than her own True Self. I don't know? I wouldn't like to judge[:p].
We have to flow, and love, and be who we are, and let our actions come out of that. And if we help others as a result then that's great, and if we don't, then that's great too. But if we become "the helper", then we have created the illusion (again) and we don't help anyone or ourselves.

Christi

[Katrine]

Hi Christi


 

quote:We have to flow, and love, and be who we are, and let our actions come out of that. And if we help others as a result then that's great, and if we don't, then that's great too.

Amen to that !

 

quote:But if we become "the helper", then we have created the illusion (again) and we don't help anyone or ourselves.

Yes.
If I become "the helper"......then being this somebody; this idea of somebody......will limit the expression. I know from experience. I used to make a living on being "the helper". I never knew - until the job change - how much I was bound up in that identity. How can the action be perfectly fitted to the moment, if I am bound up in an idea of how things should be?

If I use as a constant referencepoint "the idea of how things should be".....then how do I know that "my advise" is what is best for whoever i am dealing with? What makes me so sure that my advise is what they need?

Also - and this needs to be faced again and again - what is my motive for helping? Why is it so important for me to be a helper?

For years it bothered me that people close to me wasn't into spiritual endeavours. For years i thought this "atheism" was a "hindrance". But as it turned out, it is the best of blessings. All hindrance is inside of me. If i can accept that, then i can start looking into why things bother me. If I have an idea of how things should be, this always clashes with how things really are. Why would someone elses "atheism" bother me? When faced, that question revealed my own deep mistrust in reality. The biggest atheist was actually me.....because I pretended to know otherwise. And suppressed this very pretence. My "helping people" was actually motivated by the continuity of this "cover up". I am not saying I didn't help people.......but when help happened, it certainly was in spite of me...and not because of me.

So....I don't know how to help people. Bottom line....I don't even know how to help myself. If I can accept this.....again and again accept this......then in the release of the energy caught up in "fixing things that are not as they should be" something altogether different has a possibility to shine through.

This inner conflict (two opposite desires: 1) wanting to help people, 2) desire to be helped) eventually made it impossible to continue the work as a therapeut. I simply couldn't compromise anymore. If I help most when i allow the flow.....then I must spend my time and energy where the real work is needed: To see all that I am not, so that what I am has a chance to seep through. Then....who knows what will happen.


"Atheist"......."spiritual"...... "religious"...."enlightened" ......these are just words.  We are what we are.....every single one of us is saturated with the same Being. We all help each other - whether it looks that way or not.

[Anthem]

Hi Katrine,

Thanks for this post, it is timely for me as this is something I have been noticing in myself a lot recently, that every time I don't feel good in some way emotionally on the inside, I notice that I am in conflict with what is.

It can be really subtle sometimes, a quiet thought in the background of mind that thinks "he should do it this way, she should act like this or not like that" etc., etc., I notice this going on inside my mind and it doesn't feel good. The moment I accept the way it is, the way they are etc., I feel so much better inside, a load has been lifted off, peace.

I used to think (not too long ago) that I had to solve every delusional thought that came along in my mind, now I feel that life has become more of a constant letting go into what is. The more I let go of expectation of the way I think things ought to be, the easier life is and the better I feel inside. A little more of that innate joy can shine through.

A

[bewell]

quote:Originally posted by emc

quote:If I act according to what I understand - truth will immediately respond. The response will be the guide to further understanding. If acted on, the light approaches (because of less resistance), if not - then have I really gained anything other than impermanent comfort? Not only have I harmed "others"; the harm I have done pierces my own heart.

Katrine, I have said it before and I say it again: YOU WRITE LOVELY POSTS! This is my only guide nowadays, and it is the only guidance I use to interpret other's actions! Is the light approaching? Yes or No? Do I get an immediate response of TRUTH?

THANK YOU!

Thanks EMC. I've been reading your archived posts this morning and I resonate with much of your sharing.  Thanks for your heart of honesty. Thanks Katrine, your wisdom is like a boulder, solid and wide.

Today during meditation, my heart was aching, and I knew why. It had to do with my own actions: seeking "impermanent comfort" of a sexual type even though it may have harmed others. I'm grateful for that heartache now. It helps me let go and open to pure light.

[Katrine]

Hi bewell

 

quote:I'm grateful for that heartache now. It helps me let go and open to pure light.

Thanks for sharing this.
If I forget......
If I slip....
If i am lazy or confused and choose to fall asleep to the presence because of the difficulties i experience.....then pain happens. Or fear (which is also pain). This pain breaks me. I turn to the light, then. I remember to not forget.

[emc]

Hi bewell,

I am touched by your response to my posts. Thank you very much! I am glad to hear you can resonate with some of what I write. That makes me feel less strange and lonely.

[Christi]

Hi All

I thought I would write an update on where I am at with this radiance thing. Since I last wrote, only one person has ended up with a migraine, and that was in a situation where I was not being at all careful with my energy. They recovered after 24 hours.  Since then I have been more cautious and so far, no casualties. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was concerned about my two daughters, especially the older one who is now 4 years old. I am still very concerned about her. She is opening up at a very fast rate, and I am worried that it is too fast. Obviously she does no spiritual practices as she is only 4, so all of her transformation must be caused by work that she did in previous lives, and by energy being transmitted to her from the people around her and the natural environment (planets etc.). She has started going into trance states (samadhi) with her eyes open. She can hear and describe the omkara nada (ringing sound), and describes how it feels when your heart chakra opens. She describes the swirling energy effects of the crown chakra around her head. What I am most concerned about is that sometimes when I put her to bed in a completely dark room she says that she does not want to close her eyes because the light is too bright. She says that the light is in a pipe in front of her forehead. I am concerned that she will be drawn through the bindu (star) before she is ready.
For these reasons I have decided to spend less time close to her, especially when my crown and third eye are very active. Hopefully this will slow down her awakening.

Christi