No expectations = miraculous happenings?

[jeff]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

[CarsonZi]

I realized as I was putting my daughter Amrita to bed tonight (which is sort of my evening opportunity for quiet reflection) that I may have muddled up this topic a bit by bringing in the concept that our beliefs are our only limitations. Originally when I started this topic I was mostly speaking with regards to the lack of expectations (no beliefs at all).  I feel like I should perhaps clarify a little.

What I have noticed is this:

With no expectations/beliefs regarding a specific circumstance anything is possible, but there is also no way to "inspire" miraculous happenings to be in a specific "vein."  Miracles will happen, but we are at Life's mercy as to what *kind* of miracles will occur.

With limiting beliefs (ie. I believe I can't do xyz) we are bound to our limitations.  The only way to circumvent these limitations is to drop the beliefs.

With "unlimiting" beliefs (ie. I believe I can do xyz even though it is not generally accepted as possible) we are essentially freeing ourselves up to allow the "impossible" to happen in a slightly more specific way than with no expectations/beliefs at all.

This understanding does however bring us back to a discussion around "free will" and control.  If control is an illusion (which ultimately, in my experience, it is) then how can we "direct Life" towards specifically desired outcomes (ie. speed healing).  I don't fully understand how all this works, but you can rest assured there is a strong momentum towards understanding here.  Seems to be yet another one of Life's paradoxes which I look forward to knowing on a cellular/heart level in time.

Love,
Carson

P.S. Any insight here would (as always) be appreciated and gratefully received.  

[mr_anderson]

Hi Carson,

This is my take/opinion on the whole matter - I've wrestled with it for ages and finally come to an understanding which works for me:

The fact that everything is divine will, there's not a separate controller or doer as such, doesn't preclude the power of intention. I agree with you that control is an illusion, or more specifically, that "I am a person who has control" is an illusion.

Yet, if an intention arises in the mind, that is also divine will. If a choice arsies to act on it, intelligently removing blocks to its manifestation, that is also divine will. If a choice does not, that is also divine will.

According to a multiplicity of factors (of which the belief system held on a felt/energetic level is an influencing factor - as is inner silence and the level the intention is coming from) the intention will either manifest a result or it will not. Whether it manifests or not is also divine will.

When it comes to getting any results in life, the body-mind should take the attitude "Apply constructive, focused intention, intelligence and self-effort". But one should simultaneously, through inquiry, realize that Oneself, Pure Non-Dual Awareness, is not the doer, and not bound to actions and results, causes and effects.

so:

-The body-mind doesn't succumb to any sense of fatalism/determinism(or even possibly laziness) - all such philosophy/belief systems are just excuses for laziness and failure, and therefore makes a sincere attempt. As soon as the body-mind thinks "I have no control", this thought has become a wrong belief, and a very unhelpful one, so this is avoided entirely.

-However, as a result of inquiry, one realizes that everything that arises in the body-mind: Starting from the very first inkling of an intention, following through to an intelligent action or removal of a belief, are just passing arisings in Oneself, Pure Non-Dual Awareness, and as such, on an absolute sense, one is not the doer of actions, the chooser of thoughts, or the maker of decisions. All these things just arise or they do not, there is no self who controls them. Once again, this is understanding is reached experientially, rather than accepted as a belief. Therefore neither does the body-mind think "I have control".

The happy result is:

-A body-mind which tries its best, takes responsibility, is dynamic and thinks intelligently, and has power to manifest
-Simultaneous Self-Knowledge which frees one from the sense of the body-mind being One's Self, and therefore frees one from attachment to outcomes, and the illusory sense of "I/me" being a controller, a doer of actions, a chooser of thoughts or a maker of decisions. Peace of mind arises out of this understanding, actions are freed from the need to control an outcome, and they just arise and flow from a peaceful place.

This is neither free will nor determinism/fate, both of these are just wrong belief systems, as they assume that there's a separate self who either has free will, or does not have free will. The premise is wrong, as there is no separate self.

The Yoga Vasistha has the wisest advice on this subject. It advises intense self-effort (toward liberation mainly):

There is no power greater than right action in the present.
Hence, one should take recourse to self effort, grinding one's teeth, and one should overcome evil by good and fate by present effort.

But it also advises that Self-Effort is no different from divine will:

That you should ask me these questions is ordained by niyati, and that you should act upon my teaching is also ordained by niyati. If one says "The divine will freed me" and remains idle, that also is the work of niyati. This niyati cannot be set aside even by gods.

But wise men should not give up self-effort because of this, for niyati functions only as and through self-effort.

This niyati has two aspects, human and super-human: the former is seen where self-effort bears fruit and the latter where it does not.

If one remains idle, depending upon niyati to do everything for him, he soon discovers that his life departs - for life is action.

[kami]

Dear Carson,

Thank you for sharing about your speed healing. So glad that arm has healed.

Josh has said it well; thank you Josh.

When it comes to healing or manifesting, it is not about replacing one set of beliefs with another set that appears more favorable. This is the problem with new age "manifesting" teachings like the Secret and others. If I simply start believing that gravity doesn't exist, will I begin to float around? Why do planets and stars follow their paths obeying fundamental laws of physics? If I simply start to believe that the tree in my backyard is an evergreen, will it stop shedding as autumn comes? There are things that are beyond individual beliefs, because laws and events like gravity, seasons, etc are part of the much larger whole arising from the Universal/collective mind or Ishwara's consciousness.

There is no individual event that does not impact the whole. Creation is like a ginormous web, with infinite dominos affecting and impacting one another in subtle and dramatic ways, all occurring perfectly and orchestrated by divine will, Ishwara. Thus, if there are events (such as healing) that would favorably impact the whole, even the intent to heal or change is brought about by divine will. If it doesn't occur, that is also because it favorably affects the whole (even though it may not seem that way to the one suffering). There is nothing that can arise outside of Ishwara - how could it? All phenomena, although passing, are supported by Ishwara, and contain that supreme consciousness. I can state I have free will - but who is this I that has it? And how did this I come about in the first place? Even the individual ego self cannot exist outside of Ishwara and divine will. But the problem is that we don't truly see that there is only One, and continue to believe there is a me that is outside of the One. Hence all the doubts about free will and destiny. If anything, that is the only belief that needs undoing. Not simply by believing "there is only One", but experiencing it.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with you - when it comes to disease and healing, digging deep into the belief/intent/fear deep down is imperative. But simply not believing doesn't always result in what the individual would like. It takes more than that.

When "my" intent (the separate self) is gone, there is only divine will. At those times when this happens, it seems like a miracle. But truly, what isn't a miracle?

My love and hugs to you.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Josh, thanks for sharing your perspective.  It seems like we are on the same page as my experience appears to align with yours very closely.  I've had a hard time putting words to this paradox but you have done very well at expressing something that for me has been mostly inexpressible.

Hi Kami and thank you also for sharing your perspective.  Unfortunately I have a hard time being clear on this topic and based on your response I think you either misunderstood what I was trying to point to or we just plain disagree here.

quote:When it comes to healing or manifesting, it is not about replacing one set of beliefs with another set that appears more favorable. This is the problem with new age "manifesting" teachings like the Secret and others. If I simply start believing that gravity doesn't exist, will I begin to float around? Why do planets and stars follow their paths obeying fundamental laws of physics? If I simply start to believe that the tree in my backyard is an evergreen, will it stop shedding as autumn comes? There are things that are beyond individual beliefs, because laws and events like gravity, seasons, etc are part of the much larger whole arising from the Universal/collective mind or Ishwara's consciousness.

I wasn't trying to say that one can "replace one set of beliefs with another."  We believe what we believe and we can't trick ourselves one way or the other.  We can drop beliefs and we can hold onto beliefs, but I think a lot of us are blind to what we actually believe and this is what is holding us back from experiencing life in a completely different way than is commonly accepted as possible.  

I don't agree with you when you say that it is not our belief in gravity that holds us to the Earth (for example... we could use the example of the seasons, or anything else that is collectively believed to be true, but lets use the gravity example).  I am actually quite certain that it *is* our collective belief in gravity that holds us physically on the Earth.  With no collective (or individual) belief in gravity there is nothing that can hold us down (physically).  We can agree to disagree here if you want.  Regardless, I think you will agree (although I couled be wrong) that ultimately there is no Earth, no Sun, no humans, no gravity, etc etc etc and it is only our beliefs (largely in the continuity between moments, aka space/time) that keeps us all experiencing life the way we collectively are.  

We can intellectually believe anything we want to is truth but this would make no difference as we can't trick ourselves into believing something we don't and not believing something we do.  But, once it is KNOWN (the kind of knowing in which no one could ever convince you otherwise simply because the Truth has been experienced) that gravity is just a thought, not reality, it can no longer holds us captive.  But as I write this I realize that there is really no point in me even talking about this as the truth has to be experience by each and every one of us... one cannot experience Truth for another and how we interpret and verbalize Truth is completely individual and of little to no use to anyone (in my opinion).

quote:But simply not believing doesn't always result in what the individual would like. It takes more than that.

This is one of the sentences in your reply that indicated to me that I did a very poor job of saying what I was trying to.  I absolutely wasn't trying to say that the above is how I see things.  All I was trying to say was that having no expectations as to what will happen next (essentially meaning that the belief in the continuity between moments has been dropped) seems to result in a life filled with miraculous happenings that most people would say are the things of science fiction.  At least that is my experience.

My statement about "limiting and unlimiting beliefs" is what I see you mostly having a beef with.  An example of an "unlimiting belief" is my current example of the broken arm.  I believe that it is possible to speed heal.  So, my experience reflects that.  If I *didn't* actually believe this and just *wanted* to believe it (even though I may believe that I believe it ) I'm quite sure that my experience would have been different than it has been.  But the fact is, I actually do believe that we can heal much faster than is commonly accepted as possible and so my experience reflects that.  

Not sure if I was able to make myself any more clear here than I was before.  My apologies.

Love,
Carson

[CarsonZi]

P.S. I obviously believe I'm very special.  *facepalm*  

[kami]

Hi Carson,

No "beef" with you or anything you say (or anyone else). I had a feeling this is exactly how my words would be interpreted.

Your description indicates that you are no longer bound by gravity, simply because gravity is a limiting belief. In that case, there is not much for me to say, since that is not my experience. In my (limited) experience, all beliefs are limiting. There is no "unlimiting" belief, since every belief is merely a thought form. So, your statement of nothing being "real" somewhat contradicts the concept of unlimiting beliefs, since that implies selective "real-ness" of certain types of beliefs. However, as you say, it is for each of us to know and discover for ourselves.

Love.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Kami,

quote:Originally posted by kami

No "beef" with you or anything you say (or anyone else). I had a feeling this is exactly how my words would be interpreted.

Wonder why?

quote:Originally posted by kami

Your description indicates that you are no longer bound by gravity, simply because gravity is a limiting belief.

I was just using gravity as an example.  I'm still standing with both feet on the ground (and often my head in my ass).

quote:Originally posted by kami

In that case, there is not much for me to say, since that is not my experience. In my (limited) experience, all beliefs are limiting. There is no "unlimiting" belief, since every belief is merely a thought form. So, your statement of nothing being "real" somewhat contradicts the concept of unlimiting beliefs, since that implies selective "real-ness" of certain types of beliefs. However, as you say, it is for each of us to know and discover for ourselves.

The concept of "unlimiting beliefs" is indeed prior to the "lack of expectations"... at least in my experience.  But again, we can't trick ourselves into being somewhere we are not.  We have to work from where we are right now.

Love you.

[whippoorwill]

This is a really interesting topic.  This same kind of question has been hatching in me for some time.

It's a little bit like my conundrum with inanimate objects, wondering if I am also those objects and wondering why I can't experience the world as those objects.  As long as I believe there's an I, then there will be objects, and I will not be able to "switch places" with an object.  If the "I" belief goes away, then the objects go away too, so I wonder what's the point of wondering?  

I think our actions give us clues as to what our beliefs are.  For example, by  getting in the car and driving to the grocery store, I'm demonstrating my belief in a solid external world that has gravity and other laws of physics.  (I'm also demonstrating my belief that I have a body that likes to be regularly fed!  )  I'm very glad my car doesn't go zooming into the air and I'm also very glad that the road doesn't swallow me up.  The beliefs are perfectly suited to the role I'm playing right now and, by my every-day actions, I'm re-inforcing the beliefs.  Would I be able to step outside those beliefs without stepping outside the role?

I've no intention of trying to step outside this role.  For one thing, it would be resisting this role, and that seems the wrong way to go.  All I know is that the answer isn't in the external world, it's inside me somewhere.  The way out is in.

P.S.  
I guess I'm wondering if it's possible to believe in gravity for the purposes of driving a car and then suspend that belief for the purposes of doing a triple backflip.  Is it possible to drive a car without believing in gravity?  Is it possible to believe in the solidity of objects for the purposes of sleeping in my bed at night and then suspend that belief for the purposes of putting my hand through a wall.  Or can I sleep in my bed at night knowing that nothing is solid?   I've no answers, of course...  

[mr_anderson]

quote:Wondering if I am also those objects and wondering why I can't experience the world as those objects. As long as I believe there's an I, then there will be objects, and I will not be able to "switch places" with an object

Hi Liz

Have you resolved this conundrum?

What you are is limitless, formless awareness. Within the limitless awareness which you are, imagined appearances of form, such as 'Liz' and the 'rock' appear. Although there are these imaginary appearances of form, and matter, there is never anything but limitless, formless awareness. Whilst dreaming, there is a dream-world, and the world appears to have time, space, location, solidity, reality. Yet the sense of time, space, location, solidity and reality in a dream are only imagined they do not truly exist. The waking state is no different, it's an imaginary appearance, and its sole substance is formless awareness. It doesn't really have form, time, space, solidity, location, it only appears to.

"You" can't "switch places" with a rock, because "you", being formless awareness, aren't in any particular place. You are That which knows the imaginary sense of place, but you are not within that place, IT is within YOU.

The body-mind appearance known as Liz will always be fixed to its own particular locality. But that body-mind appearance (which is merely sensations and visual images), and its sense of locality, are appearances in that which you are, Limitless, Formless, Non-Local, Awareness.

You are imagining that "awareness" is "in your body", and hence that it could somehow move about, and jump into different things and experience them. This is not the case. Your body is in awareness, awareness is not in your body.

Let us take an analogy of a Tower (credit: Francis Lucille). In this Tower, there are two windows. One faces South, one faces North. The north window contains a view of the sea, the south window contains a view of the forest. Two windows, two completely different views.

You are asking, "I can only see out of the North window, why can't I look out of the South window?"

The question is based on an erroneous premise. You are imagining that the observer (awareness) has an attribute/form, like "memory", and that it shares the locality of the Observed (Liz). In this case, the Observer could pop out of Liz's location (North window) move to the rock's location (South window), and come back with a memory of this.

Awareness doesn't have a location, and it doesn't have memories. Memories and locations are things that rocks and body-minds have. However the appearances of rocks, body-minds and locations, arise in the same formless, non-local awareness.

The North window looks out on Liz, in the view from the North window are Liz's sense of location, thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations.

Let's say the South window looks out on Josh, and his sense of location, thoughts, feelings and bodily sensations.

The view from each window is completely different. The Josh view and the Liz view have entirely separate sense of locality, different memories and so on.

However the different 'views' of the South Window and the North Window are both simultaneously arising in the same formless awareness, and that awareness doesn't share the locality contained in either 'view'. Neither is it an awareness that has a form, such as "memory", so it can't "compare and contrast" Josh's perspective with Liz's perspective.

Does this make sense?

I suggest this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb-dq-1_ATA

Love,

Josh

[jeff]

Hi Carson,

Thank you for your very interesting and thought provoking posts. Very cool.

Hi Liz,

As one begins to realize aspects of awareness, one also begins to realize that it is possible to shift the "percieved field" of awareness in awareness. One can "be" or "share presence" with another object in consciousness. Most often the beginning of this  type of thing is first noticed when connecting with other people (easier for the mind to translate the perceptions). If you are interested, there are few threads on "connecting" in the forums.

Best wishes,
Jeff

(edit - spelling)

[whippoorwill]

Thanks for the video link, Josh!  
Sorry about hijacking the thread a bit Carson!  I think we're sniffing the same trail...

A couple of years ago, I thought chakras were all stuff and nonsense.  However, what was said about chakras was remarkably consistent, so I held it at arm's length until something more solid arrived.  Now to deny the existence of chakras would be fundamentally dishonest, because I can feel them -- really feel them.  

The same sort of thing is going on with my belief that I'm a human being on planet earth.  A couple of years ago, if you had told me that I am not a human being on planet earth, I would have thought you were crazy.  Now...  The evidence refuting this belief keeps piling up and up...

*  The global mediations:  It feels as though the other participants are really there with me, even though we're separated by thousands of miles.
*  The retreat I did in Indiana:  The feel of the cabin was completely changed when the retreat concluded from what it felt like at the beginning.
*  A little financial windfall arrived right before our boiler broke down and had to be replaced.
*  I quit my job and started a business so that my kids wouldn't have to go to daycare, and a sweet contract arrived a couple of months later.
*  Parking spaces appear right when I need them.
I could go on and on.  In fact, even everything that I considered bad has taught me something I couldn't have learned any other way.  I feel so much gratitude...

But I also still feel like a human being on planet earth.  The heart and the mind say one thing, and the body says another, so I'm looking for something that will tear that down -- more evidence.

If I am awareness, then I shouldn't need my eyes to see or my ears to hear, but I do at this point.  Although I've read about people who don't.  (And I dunno about peeking out someone else's window.  That might make them feel horribly vulnerable.  But maybe a tree or the wind won't mind...)

And Carson is saying it's our belief in gravity that keeps us bound....  (Which, by the way, is inconsistent with the assertion that causality is false.)  I think he's saying that if this is all bunk, then it ought to really be bunk.  How to discover what's actually true?

[CarsonZi]

Hi Whippoorwill

quote:Originally posted by whippoorwill

Sorry about hijacking the thread a bit Carson!  I think we're sniffing the same trail...

Not hijacking at all.  I'm truly grateful for your input.

quote:Originally posted by whippoorwill

But I also still feel like a human being on planet earth.

One many "levels" (I hate using that word) you *are* a human being on Earth.  To deny this is ludicrous IMO.  But on some levels you are not a human being at all.  Intellectually trying to realize this isn't fruitful though (as I'm sure you know)... in AYP terms that's really the definition of non-relational inquiry.  For me, following the AYP recommendations to continue releasing the thought that I am/am not human into stillness when they arose resulted in numerous experiences that verified (for me) that "human" is just a label and not really who I am.  I have had hundreds of experiences prior to these that showed me the same, but they had all been drug induced so I wanted to be sure it wasn't all "mind-trickery."  So I continued to inquire (drop the thoughts into stillness) until I could verify that this was indeed a truth (for me) when in sober-state as well.  It is.

quote:Originally posted by whippoorwill

If I am awareness, then I shouldn't need my eyes to see or my ears to hear, but I do at this point.  Although I've read about people who don't. (And I dunno about peeking out someone else's window.  That might make them feel horribly vulnerable.  But maybe a tree or the wind won't mind...)

This was also something I had to verify in sober-state after having numerous experiences on entheogens in which I was unbound awareness and able to remote-view/hear things.  I've been able to verify (for myself) in sober-state that awareness is not only localized but can also be unbound and remote-viewing/hearing/sensing and more is possible in sober-state same as it was in psychedelic-induced altered-states.  I suggest always remaining skeptical of people like me who state things like this though.  Don't take my word for it!!!

quote:Originally posted by whippoorwill

And Carson is saying it's our belief in gravity that keeps us bound....  (Which, by the way, is inconsistent with the assertion that causality is false.)

Remember that the belief in causality is always in play until it is not anymore.  Is it possible to drop the belief in gravity and still hold the belief in causality?  We are (generally?) all born with certain belief structures already in place (from the perspective here anyway)... you could call this "collective karma" or "collective human beliefs" perhaps.  In my experience, when these collective beliefs begin to fall away, that is when the entire "game" changes... the impossible becomes possible and we are no longer solely working on unwinding individual obstructions but also begin to work on the collective obstructions of the entire human race... which is seen as an aspect of "you."  If you see everyone as "you" then their obstructions are your obstructions.

Wanted to say a bit more but work is quickly getting in the way of my ability to continue right now.

Love,
Carson

[whippoorwill]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

One many "levels" (I hate using that word) you *are* a human being on Earth.  To deny this is ludicrous IMO.  

LOL!  I know.  It's completely mental.  

quote:
Remember that the belief in causality is always in play until it is not anymore.  Is it possible to drop the belief in gravity and still hold the belief in causality?

The approach I'm using right now is to take the stance that no belief is true (credit Jed Mckenna and my own experience of not having a blessed clue) and then using my actions and thoughts to discover what those beliefs are.  I'm not sure where that will lead.  I'm not doing anything about these beliefs because, for the most part, I've no idea what to do.  Releasing in stillness seems like a good idea though. Haikus are helping me process some of it.

P.S.  I'm treating experience as valid, though.  It's just a bit of an effort right now to tell the direct experience from the mind's interpretation of the experience.  Thoughts grab hold pretty quickly, though it does seem to be slowing down somewhat...

And most of the time I have to set it all aside and just get my work done.    Databases!!  Linux!!  Yay!!  

[lalow33]

quote:Originally posted by whippoorwill



It's a little bit like my conundrum with inanimate objects, wondering if I am also those objects and wondering why I can't experience the world as those objects.  As long as I believe there's an I, then there will be objects, and I will not be able to "switch places" with an object.  If the "I" belief goes away, then the objects go away too, so I wonder what's the point of wondering?  

Hi Liz,

Your post reminded me of this from The Book of Secrets:

Feel the consciousness of each person as your own consciousness.
So, leaving aside concern for self, become each being.

I know it's not inanimate objects but sounded so similar.  Probably pretty common to wonder.