Love and subservience

[kami]

The process of awakening has brought with it both a sweetness of recognition and also a sense of "gosh, how could I have missed this all along?" One area where this has become increasingly apparent is in my relationship with my husband. It seems that intimate relationships have a way of stripping us naked and bringing out what lies deeply embedded to the surface, in a way that no other relationships do..

For years, it seemed that we were drifting apart. The usual suspects of family, work, etc aside, it was as if our paths were different. I felt that I could not share my "spiritual" self with him. He would accept my "personal activities" as he called them (meditating, praying, etc) with considerable disgruntlement. However, the main issue was that he wanted me to be "subservient". My men friends tell me this is every guy's dream But, that did not sit well with the strong-willed and independent woman that I was strongly identified with.. Friction galore! We seemed to have forgotten why we came together in the first place..

That has all changed the last few months - subtly, gradually and exponentially, in that order.  It occurred to me that all relationships and the world in general, are akin to the reflection in a mirror. I point a finger and the reflection points back, I smile, it smiles back, and so on.. Of course, we have been told this all our lives.. But, the primary issue is that our *perception* of what is seen in the mirror is distorted when we are identified as the separate, small self. As we clear and polish that perception, things appear a lot clearer and for what they truly are..

As that process has continued here, I first came to see how at least part of the problem lay with my own issues of self-worth. With a shift in perception, that was blown away, and the walls between us disappeared. There was no one "there" with low self-worth and insecurities, strong will or independence. Only pure, blissful is-ness. With that, love gushes through and there is an overwhelming desire to give.. What happens to the reflection when we open our arms in love and delight?

There is a new-found intimacy, joy and curiosity, much deeper than even our early years of marriage. We suddenly love hanging out together, and talk more than we ever did, even about "spiritual" things. Even in disagreements, there is humor and playfulness. The more I open and surrender to the moment, the richer and sweeter it gets. A love that cannot be classified as "romantic" or otherwise because it just is. No doubt this will evolve and change in a myriad ways. He stated recently that I am a "much better" person than the one he married so many years ago. I smiled in gratitude and returned to what has become the main pre-occupation - polishing that mirror.

In hindsight, it was/is about being subservient - not to anyone in particular, but to the here and now.

kami

[Shanti]

<3 <3 <3 <3 <3

[maheswari]

lovely...thank you[]

[mr_anderson]

that's awesome

reminds me of how my relationships have changed so much also. The love I feel for (and the love I receive from) my girlfriend has changed so much, since in March this year, I had the first clear recognition of 'no-self'.

Now it's just an increasing intimacy and supportive love with her, and in fact with life itself.

[Shanti]

quote:Originally posted by mr_anderson

in fact with life itself.

<3[]<3

[karl]

love it. When you dis-identify then the mirror dropped its curtain of illusion and resistance vanished. This is how we all are, open and simple.

Oh yes and men's fantasies are definitely not subservient women, at least mine isn't. I got a feisty welsh woman.

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by mr_anderson

that's awesome

reminds me of how my relationships have changed so much also. The love I feel for (and the love I receive from) my girlfriend has changed so much, since in March this year, I had the first clear recognition of 'no-self'.

Now it's just an increasing intimacy and supportive love with her, and in fact with life itself.

Beautiful! That's the experience here too - intimacy with the is-ness, life itself, which somehow expands to include others..

quote:Originally posted by karl



Oh yes and men's fantasies are definitely not subservient women, at least mine isn't. I got a feisty welsh woman.

Hmmm.. you must be an exception then.. Or is it that you have come to accept what is??

"Feisty" is an adjective that is used quite a bit with me - all good!

Love,
kami

[karl]

I was engaged to a subservient woman and broke it off a few weeks before the wedding because I realised that I wanted someone who could stand up for herself. I wanted a woman who was strong and independent and not someone who hung off my every word and doted on me.......haha I got that  As the saying goes 'be careful what you wish for, you might just get it ' . We have a completely equal relationship which has grown and grown and continues to evolve. She argues more with me now than she did at the start, I cannot get away with a simple statement without evidence and facts, it's worse than being in a courtroom.

Maybe I am in the minority. Well that goes for most things, I have never followed the crowd, always done it my own unique and sometimes foolish way.

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by karl


Well that goes for most things, I have never followed the crowd, always done it my own unique and sometimes foolish way.

That's the sure sign of a leader and sage, you know.

Much love to you.

[CarsonZi]

A beautiful post Kami.

quote:Originally posted by kami

It seems that intimate relationships have a way of stripping us naked and bringing out what lies deeply embedded to the surface, in a way that no other relationships do.

This is absolutely my experience as well.  My wife absolutely brings stuff to the surface that I don't want to see (but really need to).    It's not that she is *trying* to do so, but as long as I am willing to look into the shadows of my own soul, this is the result.

quote:Originally posted by kami

However, the main issue was that he wanted me to be "subservient". My men friends tell me this is every guy's dream

Hmmmm.... perhaps a cultural thing??  Maybe not, maybe it's individual, but I can say for certain that this is NOT "every guy's dream."  Both long term relationships I have been in have been with initially "subservient" women.  I don't particularly like the word subservient, and maybe the words "timid" or "lacking in self confidence" would be more accurate to describe these two women, but in both cases, within 4 or 5 years of us being together, they have ended up being much more confident and willing to speak their mind, no matter how they anticipate me feeling.  This results in more of the above point about bringing stuff I need to see to the surface.  The initial timidness in both of these partners *did* however often times manifest in them acting subservient towards me, but having an intense and often overbearing personality myself, this only seemed aggravate and irritate me.  I *need* someone who will stand up to me and call me on my sh*t even though I often don't want to see what they are reflecting and it can cause resistance and turmoil at least at first.

quote:Originally posted by kami

As that process has continued here, I first came to see how at least part of the problem lay with my own issues of self-worth.

This has also been my experience.  In fact, I think the tendency to "desire subservient women" that can be noticed in many men is actually just masking their own feelings of unworthiness.  They/we feel unworthy, so when someone acts in a subservient way towards us it (temporarily/artificially) makes us feel more worthy/better about ourselves.

quote:Originally posted by kami

With that, love gushes through and there is an overwhelming desire to give.

This is what I see the desire for subservience turning into... an outpouring of service, from both sides.  The whole "sub" thing creates a hierarchy, increases separation.  True service, especially when coming from both sides of a relationship, results in an outpouring of radiance and divine love.

Love!
Carson

[mr_anderson]

quote:In fact, I think the tendency to "desire subservient women" that can be noticed in many men is actually just masking their own feelings of unworthiness. They/we feel unworthy, so when someone acts in a subservient way towards us it (temporarily/artificially) makes us feel more worthy/better about ourselves.

Got to chime in and agree with Carson there. I prefer a relationship based on equality, and woman with a smart mind, and strong, loving heart.

However, all relationships are an interplay of yin/yang. My body is of male gender, and heterosexual inclination. Beyond that, all my identifications with gender end.

Relationships seem to me to be Awareness/That taking on the seeming of duality, and engaging in the dance of love and attraction with itself.

Identifying oneself with a particular duality - masculine/feminine, ying/yang, dominant/submissive - is just ego. The only thing I can say, from my limited experience of relationships, is that it pays enormously to allow the dualities of yin/yang to dance freely within you, without identifying as one or other.

I try to give deep listening and intuitive sensitivity to life, the situation and the other person. You find that naturally life itself lives you, and you are inclined towards the most intelligent behavior that is most lovingly right for the moment (instead of acting out a personality structure of beliefs, ideas, emotions, concepts): to be forceful or yielding, to apologize or assert yourself, to serve the other person and try to fulfill them or to choose what you want and go for it. Etcetera.

I feel that in every facet of life and relationships there is a constant dance of these opposites, and appropriate times to embody ying, or embody yang.

I have erred in life when my identification with one quality impeded the natural dance within me: In times of identification/attachment to yin I've been brittle, insensitive, aggressive, worked too hard with lower quality results, quick to anger, too carnal, over-excited. In time of identification/attachment to yang, I've found myself a bit weak and passive, lazy, depressed, lacking vitality.

It sounds like hippy stuff, but once you open to the flow, you find you are all and neither, your behavior and energy switching from yin to yang instantly as appropriate, alternating all the time from minute to minute, day to day, resulting in the most harmonious and beneficial outcome in all fields of life.

[nearoanoke]

Thanks for sharing kami. It always feels good reading transformational stories like these.

[Yonatan]

Thanks Kami

Beautiful sharing.

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi


Hmmmm.... perhaps a cultural thing??  Maybe not, maybe it's individual, but I can say for certain that this is NOT "every guy's dream.  

In fact, I think the tendency to "desire subservient women" that can be noticed in many men is actually just masking their own feelings of unworthiness.  They/we feel unworthy, so when someone acts in a subservient way towards us it (temporarily/artificially) makes us feel more worthy/better about ourselves.

Hi Carson!!

Can I just say I absolutely and totally love you?

About the cultural thing - actually, the men friends who affirmed this are *very* white I'll make sure they stand corrected!! I agree with you that this is an individual thing.. Although more global in certain cultures..

In our case, it was a tailspin in retrospect. My husband is one of the most wonderful human beings I know, a true karma yogi, with not a violent or overbearing bone in him. However, with my need to constantly assert myself even when it was unnecessary, he had become withdrawn and "subservience" was a word he used in exasperation. That made me more stubborn and inflexible.. As soon as I gave up the need for control, all that gave way to treating each other with increasing love and respect - as equals.. In reality, he admires my ability to stand on my own and that I stay with him not because I need to, but because I want to  This whole thing has been a wonderful mirror experiment!!

Near and Yonatan, thank you!!

Love you all!!

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by mr_anderson

]
However, all relationships are an interplay of yin/yang. My body is of male gender, and heterosexual inclination. Beyond that, all my identifications with gender end.

Relationships seem to me to be Awareness/That taking on the seeming of duality, and engaging in the dance of love and attraction with itself.

Identifying oneself with a particular duality - masculine/feminine, ying/yang, dominant/submissive - is just ego. The only thing I can say, from my limited experience of relationships, is that it pays enormously to allow the dualities of yin/yang to dance freely within you, without identifying as one or other..

I feel that in every facet of life and relationships there is a constant dance of these opposites, and appropriate times to embody ying, or embody yang.

It sounds like hippy stuff, but once you open to the flow, you find you are all and neither, your behavior and energy switching from yin to yang instantly as appropriate, alternating all the time from minute to minute, day to day, resulting in the most harmonious and beneficial outcome in all fields of life.

Hi Josh

Very beautifully said - not hippy at all.. Recently, I came to "see" I'm neither male nor female, yet I'm both.. It was very freeing

Much love!