hormesis and Kumbhak

[david_obsidian]

I'm always interested in 'the science' of Yoga.

Yogani said:
[holding breath] places a slight challenge on the
oxygen supply in the body. This is what draws prana up into the
nervous system from its huge storehouse in the pelvic region

Interestingly,  to me anyway,  this may be another example of exploitation,  in Yoga, of a hormetic mechanism -- that is,  the positive exploitation of the body's corrective counter-reaction to a normally 'negative' condition.  In exploiting hormesis,  we deliberately establish a mild 'negative' condition with the intention of obtaining the body's 'positive' counter-reaction to it.

I've noticed that exploitation of hormesis seems to pop up again and again in Yoga.
In my mind,  possibility of a hormetic mechanism stand out in three things in particular which I have found so far --

1.  Amaroli,  where we suddenly increase the concentration of the body's own chemical toxins,  to positive overall effect;
2.  Hatha Yoga Asanas: stretching of muscles in asana,  which subjects them to a mild and broadly-distributed physical trauma and forces a response from the body of broadly-distributed healing activity;
3. and  Kumbhak -- exploitation of a temporary,  mild, oxygen deficit.

There's room for a good yoga/science essay some time,  called 'Yoga and Hormesis'.

By the way,  acupuncture may be another exploitation of 'hormesis'.

(should this be in Yoga, Science and Philosophy?  Well,  it seems to fit both forums...  I chose what I thought was best.)

[yogani]

Hi David:

Excellent observations. 'Yoga and Hormesis' is an area where science can dig in and find some of the mechanics of human spiritual transformation.

The guru is in you.


PS -- Fasting is another one which is being explored elsewhere here. It is also a case where gentle challenging of the system brings out hidden capabilities for transformation in the human neurobiology. That is why we find fasting in many of the spiritual traditions.

[david_obsidian]

Indeed,  thanks!  Fasting is another to add to the list!

And indeed,  fasting is an example where the 'challenge' (and required resulting positive response)  are operating on two levels at once:  on the physical level,  and on the mental/spiritual/willpower level.

[yogani]

Hi David:

And holdback in tantric sex too ...

"Yama" (restraint) is all over the place in yoga as stimulus, with the response coming from the inner machinery of purification and opening. Not exactly the same as hormesis, but along similar lines of "challenging" the neurobiology in particular ways. If yama is measured (self-paced) in daily practices, then the purification and opening can be sustained over the long term. That is where the real benefit is found in the principle of restraint, in long term cultivation. Then the inner functioning we are cultivating becomes self-sustaining, and we become it -- moving beyond our previous level of functioning to a broader view of our existance and relationship with our surroundings.

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

Yes,  not all of that is 'hormesis' in the conventional sense,  but it could be called 'generalized hormesis',  meaning deliberate exposure to a moderate trauma as a challenge, in order to exploit the positive response and use it as a means to progress.

It's fascinating.  It's wonderful that so much of it can be broken down to one pattern -- a challenge,  a difficulty,  skillfully and deliberately applied, to body or spirit -- in order to produce a positive response,  in body or spirit or both;  and how this pattern exists at entirely different levels of Yoga,  without the pattern being explicitly recognized,  sometimes hidden and biochemical...

Indeed, karma-yoga can be seen as the skillful manipulation of one's own attitude to (or exposure to) the difficulties/challenges of life so that the positive spiritual response can flow,  unimpeded, from the challenges.....

Hey,  it all makes me wonder if some of the self-mortifiers/extreme ascetics were onto something better than I thought they were....  There is certainly that mythology of Brahma granting boons in response to extreme 'tapas'....  I used to think they were 'misguided zealots' -- but maybe I was too rash...  any thoughts?

[weaver]

Hi David and Yogani,

I think it's possible that the pleasures that our minds will seek also could come under the principle of hormesis. If the mind is starved of sensual pleasures, or if there are great difficulties in material life, that has been known to cause an increasing interest in spiritual matters, to find pleasure there instead. I think ascetics and many spiritual seekers have been applying this principle.

[yogani]

Hi David:

There are extremists in every branch of spiritual practice. Maybe it works for a few, but not for many.

It would be like driving 100 miles-per-hour to work every day. It would save time, if one managed to get there. If everyone did it, how many would arrive?

There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!
 
You know, I have seen some extremists along the way here. They usually have a wild look in their cyber-eyes, a narrow focus on one do-or-die practice, and have a tendency to drop in and drop back out.

Could "mortification of the flesh" be done in a systematic way for spiritual purposes? I suppose so, but that is not what we are into in AYP. Somewhere between doing nothing and mortifying the flesh is the middle road of consistently and gently challenging the neurobiology to evolve over a long period of time. And evolve it will.

I'm not Judas, and am not looking for his help. These temples will disintegrate soon enough without any extra help. In the meantime, let's make the most of our opportunity.

The guru is in you.

[Alvin Chan]

Nice disscusion. For fasting, though, there are many better reasons to explain its positive effects. Among the most important is: during fasting, our body have a low supply of "new" nutrients. So the tissues and cells have to release all their reserves. In the process the toxins are also released. With enough water, these toxins can then be removed.

This also explain why it's important to drink enough water during fasting. And also during the initial stages of fasting one may feel WORSE.

Some do fasting for training the mind. But we have many other ways to train our mind, like strict Brahmacharya. So I won't do fasting simply to train he mind.

[Anthem]

Hi Yogani,
 

quote:There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!

This would be pretty frightening to me. I have experimented (albeit lightly) with doing more than I should and not only do you get grumpy, irritable or any host of negative feelings of discomfort (which are stored in our bodies), but your life tends to attract in circumstances for your purification too.

So in other words, you are emotionally unstable to begin with, then you get to face some situation you dread at the same time! I think this could actually set you back if it is just too much and make your spiritual progress slower in the end?

Maybe if I had a cave I could go hide in while I tried it, then I might be more inclined![]

I find when I get my self-pacing right that I can go through things with so much more inner happiness and positive energy that it makes life so much more fun to live.

[david_obsidian]

Yogani said:
There is no doubt that any of us can go much faster with AYP if we choose to, with extreme discomfort (mortification) being the price for the extra progress. How many would fall off the path along the way? A lot. And most would be very unhappy with me for suggesting such an approach, which I am not!

I agree with this.  Going deliberately into extreme difficulty should not be recommended to the public,  and indeed you should not recommend it.  The only thing I am observing is that,  whereas the majority who do it may not be wise, a few who do it may nonetheless be following wisdom.  What is wise for one is not necessarily wise for another.

[david_obsidian]

Alvin said:
Among the most important is: during fasting, our body have a low supply of "new" nutrients. So the tissues and cells have to release all their reserves. In the process the toxins are also released. With enough water, these toxins can then be removed.

By the way,  if this is true,  it's not outside the term of 'generalized hormesis' as I defined it.  Exploitation of the positive benefit from the body's corrective response to a normally negative, or challenging stimulus.  (Yes,  even exercise comes in the definition if you make it broad enough...).

By the way,  I've often wondered if this is a scientifically accepted explanation of the toxin-elimination mechanism that follows from fasting?  Is it over-simplified in some way? I mean,  why do the 'toxins' come out when the 'reserves' come out?  Any ideas?

[Manipura]

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
Exploitation of the positive benefit from the body's corrective response to a normally negative, or challenging stimulus.  (Yes,  even exercise comes in the definition if you make it broad enough...).

I was thinking this too.  Pushing the body to extremes to break down the muscles so that, when they repair, they are bigger, stronger.  Lactic acid is released in the process (toxin).  

I saw this Tshirt on a ridiculously buff guy at the gym:  Pain is weakness leaving the body.    A good motto for hormesis?

[david_obsidian]

Well,  it's funny,  but not a good motto for hormesis.  There's a lot of painful stuff you can do,  with more loss than gain -- not hormesis.  Also,  some probably hormetic things are not painful as such -- amaroli,  muscle-stretching,  even kumbhak....

[Alvin Chan]

David wrote:

quote:By the way, I've often wondered if this is a scientifically accepted explanation of the toxin-elimination mechanism that follows from fasting? Is it over-simplified in some way? I mean, why do the 'toxins' come out when the 'reserves' come out? Any ideas?

I am not sure if it's a "proved" fact. But it's a reasonable one. "Scientific" in the sense that it's among the most reasonable explanation. One joking way to explain why this is true: our cells are too stupid to distinguish between "toxins" and "reserves", so on fasting they let everything come out. Don't take it too serious, though[]

Btw, when the stored fats come out, the fat-soluble toxins trapped will probably come out with them.

[david_obsidian]

Alvin said:
One joking way to explain why this is true: our cells are too stupid to distinguish between "toxins" and "reserves", so on fasting they let everything come out.

Yes,  that's the picture I was afraid of.    Which made me think that the real picture was different.

I think the 'real' picture may be more like the body comes to realize that there may be a serious shortage of food coming up.  So it has less to do in terms of storing food -- it can no longer store food -- and it knows that maybe there are some dangerous times ahead,  from which it must protect itself;  so it tries to get itself into as good possible shape it can, under the constraints.  By,  for example,  getting rid of toxins,  and running a very 'tight ship' biochemically.

Doesn't that make sense?