945 From: "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:56pm
Subject: Question on Samyama lilia_petkova
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Hi!
Is there anyone who on starting samyama practice experiences head
bouncing back a little when thinking of a sutra?
946 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:36pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama obsidian9999
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@y...>
wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Is there anyone who on starting samyama practice experiences head
> bouncing back a little when thinking of a sutra?
Hello Lilia,
I think I recognize your name --- the first to review Yogani's book on amazon.com if my memory serves me well!
Spontaneous head-movements (sometimes called 'spontaneous kriyas') are
common when doing samyama practice, especially in the beginning. They
generally settle down. And they are generally harmless. Do you think this is what is going on?
Is it happening for a particular sutra, or for all? And consistently
or occasionally?
Regards,
-David
947 From: "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 11:12am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama lilia_petkova
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Hi David,
Thanks a lot for your response. You remember correctly I did one of
the reviews.
This with the head bouncing back happens with all sutras every time
for now at least
It is not problematic or anything but I am
curious about it since it did not happen with the other practices
that I tried so far.
Best,
Lili
> Hello Lilia,
>
> I think I recognize your name --- the first to review Yogani's
book on amazon.com if my memory serves me well!
>
> Spontaneous head-movements (sometimes called 'spontaneous kriyas')
are
> common when doing samyama practice, especially in the beginning.
They
> generally settle down. And they are generally harmless. Do you
think this is what is going on?
>
> Is it happening for a particular sutra, or for all? And
consistently
> or occasionally?
>
> Regards,
>
> -David
948 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 11:33am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama obsidian9999
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Hello Lilia,
maybe it is just a spontaneous kriya, and harmless and fine then.
One last thing --- you aren't unknowingly, unconsciously initiating
it out of habit are you? Like some people do, when going through a
list in their head, nod their head for each element in the list?
You know, go through a grocery list in your head --- "rice, pasta,
fruit" --- your head may nod a little for each item (you can often
see people doing this). The samyama practice could potentially
amplify that nod, I think. That's just a thought.
Could that be it, alternatively?
Regards,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@y...>
wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> Thanks a lot for your response. You remember correctly I did one of
> the reviews.
>
> This with the head bouncing back happens with all sutras every time
> for now at least
It is not problematic or anything but I am
> curious about it since it did not happen with the other practices
> that I tried so far.
>
> Best,
> Lili
>
>
> > Hello Lilia,
> >
> > I think I recognize your name --- the first to review Yogani's
> book on amazon.com if my memory serves me well!
> >
> > Spontaneous head-movements (sometimes called 'spontaneous
kriyas')
> are
> > common when doing samyama practice, especially in the
beginning.
> They
> > generally settle down. And they are generally harmless. Do you
> think this is what is going on?
> >
> > Is it happening for a particular sutra, or for all? And
> consistently
> > or occasionally?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > -David
950 From: "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama azaz932001
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Hello everyone
I've only just started Sanyama (a couple of days) and I have
experienced something similar. I get rapid head movements from side to
side. I experienced the same trouble with my meditation before I
started AYP and that time the mantra and spinal breathing cured it.
With me that sort of thing seems to occur whenever I try to keep the
mind empty I may be unconsciously trying to force it I'm not sure, but
it is quite a problem as it is quite violent and I have to consciously
stop it in case I do myself an injury.
Blessings R.C.
951 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed May 11, 2005 4:53pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama obsidian9999
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Namaste Richard,
the Samyama may bring on significant spontaneous kriyas itself as I
was mentioning. But you could indeed be bringing a little more on
yourself by 'trying to keep the mind empty'. Note that 'keep the
mind empty' is not in the instructions. Yogani's instructions are
very well written here, look ----
> In samyama practice we do not entertain the mantra
either. We start by not favoring anything but being easy in our
silence, however much silence we have from our just completed
meditation session, and naturally present in us from our months or
years of daily meditation. This is the starting point for samyama --
silence.
> The only prerequisite for doing samyama practice is having some
inner
silence. For most people this is after a few months of daily deep
meditation, as covered in the early lessons.
Compare
i) 'not favoring anything but being easy in our silence'
ii) 'trying to keep the mind empty'
Although in a sense, the *aim* may be the same in i) and ii), the
practice is different. In fact, i) is more like "coming *out* of
meditation", not going into it --- and that, in fact is a way
Samyamas can be seen --- "_meaning_ initiated in silence as we let
ourselves come *out* of meditation". (To add to the paradox, they
can *tend* to plunge us back in to meditation! But never mind -- we
don't complain!)
Practice (ii), trying to keep the mind empty, is not part of this
kind of mantra-yoga and samyamas.
It took me a long time to let myself let go of ii). One of the
reasons why it is hard to let go of such a thing is that we are used
to getting most of our results from effort.
Another is that, particularly if you have some skill in
concentration or control of your mind, if you have an inborn
ability to 'keep your mind empty', you may even reap *temporary*
benefits from taking control in this way. But the experience has
been that in the long term, i) is a better instruction. So if you
have that ability, drop it! It's not part of the right instruction!
Does dropping that control mean that some thoughts would come in some
times that would not come in if we kept the control? Probably, yes.
And maybe in the short term, meditation would seem less deep for
dropping this control. Let it be so. There are lots of cases where,
as we pick up a skill, we have to drop things that will help us in
the short run but hinder us in the long-run; an example is looking
at your fingers as you type or play the piano. This will help you in
the early days but get in your way later. So you have to drop it.
So Richard, if you can 'keep your mind empty', let it go and do
your samyamas as instructed. It's not often in life you are
encouraged to take *less* responsibility.
Blessings,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "azaz932001"
<richardchamberlin14@h...> wrote:
> Hello everyone
>
> I've only just started Sanyama (a couple of days) and I have
> experienced something similar. I get rapid head movements from side
to
> side. I experienced the same trouble with my meditation before I
> started AYP and that time the mantra and spinal breathing cured it.
> With me that sort of thing seems to occur whenever I try to keep
the
> mind empty I may be unconsciously trying to force it I'm not sure,
but
> it is quite a problem as it is quite violent and I have to
consciously
> stop it in case I do myself an injury.
>
> Blessings R.C.
956 From: "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu May 12, 2005 0:07pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama azaz932001
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
> Namaste Richard,
>
> the Samyama may bring on significant spontaneous kriyas itself as I
> was mentioning. But you could indeed be bringing a little more on
> yourself by 'trying to keep the mind empty'.
Yes David
You have reinforced what I was already thinking. Its been quite
difficult for me coming as I have from Hermetics where the emphasis is
on concentration exercises, but I have just finished a meditation
session and tried Sanyama again with no problem. I do get sometimes
violent shudders even in meditation, but a lot of it is the thing I
warn against myself the good old trying too hard.
Thanks for your comments.
Blessings R.C.
959 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:24am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama jim_and_his_...
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@h...> wrote:
> > I do get sometimes violent shudders even in meditation, but a lot of it is the thing I
> warn against myself the good old trying too hard.
There is much mention in AYP and in most other spiritual literature about shuddering. It's
a fine thing. Osho taught his practioners to relish shakes and shudders and tremors, and
to really surrender to them. They're seen as holy.
My experience, fwiw corroborates. I feel very very cleaned out after this happens. And it
only happens when I go deep.
That said, I don't AIM to shake or shudder....just take it when it comes.
964 From: "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:26am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama azaz932001
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
<jim_and_his_karma@y...> wrote:
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "azaz932001"
<richardchamberlin14@h...> wrote:
> > > I do get sometimes violent shudders even in meditation, but a
lot of it is the thing I
> > warn against myself the good old trying too hard.
>
>
> There is much mention in AYP and in most other spiritual literature
about shuddering. It's
> a fine thing. Osho taught his practioners to relish shakes and
shudders and tremors, and
> to really surrender to them. They're seen as holy.
>
> My experience, fwiw corroborates. I feel very very cleaned out
after this happens. And it
> only happens when I go deep.
>
> That said, I don't AIM to shake or shudder....just take it when it
comes.
Thanks Jim I,ve never been into Osho stuff so I hadent heard this I
will bear it in mind.
Blessings R.C.
965 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:21pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama obsidian9999
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> > That said, I don't AIM to shake or shudder....just take it when it
> comes.
>
> Thanks Jim I,ve never been into Osho stuff so I hadent heard this I
> will bear it in mind.
>
> Blessings R.C.
I agree with all this. Observe that sometimes the spontaneous kriyas
can be a single jolt, as opposed to a shudder per se --- something
like that jolt that often happens to people as they fall asleep. One
more little twist --- spontaneous kriyas may be SEMI-voluntary rather
than involuntary. That is the way they have mostly been for me
anyway. What I mean is I can stop them easily; but I shouldn't and
don't. But even if they are semi-voluntary as opposed to
involuntary, when they come though, you still really know the
difference between those and, say, a restless impulse to move.
Namaste,
-David
968 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:13pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama jim_and_his_...
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@h...> wrote:
> Thanks Jim I,ve never been into Osho stuff so I hadent heard this I
> will bear it in mind.
>
yeah, fwiw, I don't have more than a passing interest in his stuff, myself (though he's
highly respected, and I'd like to know more). I was just naming an example. Swami Rama
tells how his guru taught him to hold his jaw tightly shut so his teeth wouldn't bang
painfully together during the shudders. Many other references, including in some of
Yogani's lessons. It's a primo sign of purification, according to all sources I checked.
Don't sweat the shudders! (and don't shudder at the sweats!).
955 From: "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu May 12, 2005 10:12am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama lilia_petkova
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Hi David!
What you suggest is quite rational but it did not occur to me
The
thing is that in my case the head bounces back and not forward.
Imagine the looks if I start doing it in the grocery store
Just
kidding. Thanks for thinking on my question.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
> You know, go through a grocery list in your head --- "rice, pasta,
> fruit" --- your head may nod a little for each item (you can often
> see people doing this). The samyama practice could potentially
> amplify that nod, I think. That's just a thought.
>
> Could that be it, alternatively?
>
960 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:20am
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama jim_and_his_...
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@y...> wrote:
> Hi David!
>
> What you suggest is quite rational but it did not occur to me
The
> thing is that in my case the head bounces back and not forward.
> Imagine the looks if I start doing it in the grocery store
Just
> kidding. Thanks for thinking on my question.
You may have just answered your own question. Maybe try doing practices in public once
in a while. You'll be amazed at the non-presence of supposedly uncontrollable
movements! You'll learn a lot about the diff between truly spontaneous movements and
movements that you're just doing out of habit.
You never want to "control" the kriya. As Yogani says, it's your nervous system doing
things to help the purification. But neither do you want to "perform" them, either, i.e. get
into ruts/habits where you expect to do them, and your expectation is self-fulfilling.
Practicing in public (once in a while!) gives wonderful insight into what's performance and
what isn't. You'll be surprised how deep you can get without thrashing around. And then
you can return to practice in privacy with a clearer slate.
Just an idea.
966 From: "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:19pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama lilia_petkova
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Dear Jim,
Thank you for your note. Your suggestion seems very reasonable except
that some ppl might tend to go in the other extreme while in public -
trying to stifle and restrain all spontaneous movements to the point
of diluting their focus. This happened to me while trying to meditate
on a bus/train. Thanks for the idea.
Lili
> Practicing in public (once in a while!) gives wonderful insight into
what's performance and
> what isn't. You'll be surprised how deep you can get without
thrashing around. And then
> you can return to practice in privacy with a clearer slate.
>
> Just an idea.
967 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:25pm
Subject: Re: Question on Samyama jim_and_his_...
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "lilia_petkova" <lilia_petkova@y...> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
>
> Thank you for your note. Your suggestion seems very reasonable except
> that some ppl might tend to go in the other extreme while in public -
> trying to stifle and restrain all spontaneous movements to the point
> of diluting their focus. This happened to me while trying to meditate
> on a bus/train. Thanks for the idea.
>
> Lili
Oh, yes, for sure! You don't want to stifle, just as you don't want to get into a rut of
performing movements to your expectation. So I'm not suggesting this as a way to muzzle
the involuntary (or even the semi-voluntary). Just as a way to occasionally shed light re:
just how voluntary certain things are. When I meditate on the subway (e.g. if I have no time
to meditate at home), I can get pretty deep and stay pretty motionless and serene-
looking...except my forehead crinkles up. So...doubt about it: that's a kriya (and it's
surprising; it was the thing I'd most suspected I was "performing"!). After practice, I
sometimes do a trial run to see how much of this I can peel away and maintain the depth
of my state. I don't do this a lot, I just do it out of my own innate curiosity. When I
meditate (in private), I follow Yogani's instructions and stay with mantra and let things
happen without attaching (or forcibly detaching) from them.
The possibility of misconstrual is why people don't often like to talk about this stuff, and
why practices have long been kept secret. There are always ways people can be sent on
wild goose chases by misconstruals, take "middle" concepts too far to one extreme or the
other, etc.. Yogani's done a great job of structuring the lessons so they're clear and not
likely to send anyone on wild goose chases, and they get everyone into the frame of mind
to can self-guide. That's not the case with a forum, of course, so maybe we should all put
footers on our postings reading "but of course, this is all just talk....the practice is the
thing!"
