Meditation for all levels of Spiritual Seekers?

[swaha]

unless one moves through confusion, clarity never comes...

[rkishan]

Dear Yogani,

What you have said is fair.  More than fair.  I would agree that this topic should be moved to the "Other systems" section of the AYP forums, or even removed if you think it is counter productive to the practitioners of AYP.

You are doing some great work here from which I myself have personally benefited in more than one way in the past years.  I should even go the extend to say that AYP has had a profound impact on my life and my perspectives.  The practice of amaroli alone has brought about so many changes.  Your great book on "Diet Shatkarmas and Amaroli", introduced me to this practice.

It is not my intention to interfere or obstruct the work here in any way.  I have been spreading the word about AYP and the great work done here to many of my friends and associates in the past years.  I think I am confused in many ways due to some imbalances and challenges that I had to face on my path.  This has recently made some strong changes in my perspective favoring the traditional ways.  I guess I sounded them out very loudly here in a challenging manner.  I understand that this can be counter productive to the great service and work done here.

I respect the ways of AYP and your work.  Even if I have some differing views, I still consider myself part of AYP and would like to contribute and help rather than to obstruct in any way.

As I stated before, I have profound gratitude to your work and to the AYP community.

Regards,
Ram.

[Yuri]

Hi Riptiz

No, this is not what I suggest.

What I suggest is that practitioners would put some time in analyzing their own disbalances and weak points before starting Kundalini practices. And that they would find the ways to deal with/correct these disbalances.

This is important not only for beginners. Yogani put exactly in his previous post what I was going to put: that sooner or later during practices almost everybody comes to the point of extra sensitivity. I would add also that a lot is coming to the point of lack of resource. In this period(s) our inborn (inherited) disbalances are becoming much stronger, and it's difficult to deal with them; so it's better to learn how to deal with them in advance.

What I mean that let's say I have a "weak link" in my system (kidneys, or liver, or backbone, or lack of internal fire, ...). But I live and don't notice it untill stress period. During stress this "weak link" collapses, and the result is lamentable. Such a stress by the way may be caused by overloading with "usual activity" (like somebody will start strenuous physical exrcises after long period of doing nothing). Special practices like Kundalini practices put a lot of stress, and this stress will come almost for sure, and it's better to find "weak links" and prepare beforehand.  

[yogani]

Hi rkishan:

This is a very informative discussion, and can be helpful to many. It is, however, mainly about alternative approaches, so we will move it to the "Other Systems" forum category. The discussion can continue there as desired.

Many thanks to everyone for contributing, and all the best on your chosen path!

The guru is in you.

[AYPforum]

Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement

[Yuri]

I reread my last post, and found out that it does not represent exactly what I think.

Really, I am for practicing meditation from the very beginning. Then self-analyse of it's effects shall be done. If meditation brings us to more desirable state of being more peaceful, balanced and grounded - fine. If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel. It may bring harm  in practising meditation for months with the hope that it will finally "go right". Or one shall quit the ordinary life with stresses, and make meditation the main part/goal of life activity (go to ashram, for example).

The key factor here is IMHO internal feeling: are we getting more balanced, or on the contrary more stressed because of the practice. We shall find the practice which will help us to live through stresses, and not one which brings stresses in addition to stresses of ordinary life

Hope, it's more clear now. Wish everybody the success on his way.

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by Yuri



Really, I am for practicing meditation from the very beginning. Then self-analyse of it's effects shall be done. If meditation brings us to more desirable state of being more peaceful, balanced and grounded - fine. If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel. It may bring harm  in practising meditation for months with the hope that it will finally "go right".

Yuri,

Thanks for your clarification.  My ideas about these things change from time to time.  I totally agree with your statement, "If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel."

When I said that my ideas change, the results that I derive from the practices are confusing sometimes.  For a while I thought pranayama, japa, meditation etc, helped with anger or depression.  It even seemed to work for a while before I added the Deep Meditation.  Later I started feeling that meditation increases the anger-depression-anger cycles.  In my case, whenever there is an excess of energy like anger, it is immediately followed by a low (depression),  and vice versa.  In-between these oscillating states, I remain centered also (many times).  I want to increase the boundary of this 'center' where I stay balanced.  Eventually the goal is to make this centered balance state a constant experience instead of oscillating between higher and lower states.

I said, "The results that I derive from the practices are confusing sometimes".  This problem gets even more compounded when we see completely contradicting opinions from the great masters of yoga, that we look upon.

We know that AYP and Yogani is for meditation (In this link Yogani suggests that it is okay for people with depression to try deep meditation, http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=836&whichpage=3&SearchTerms=depression,iyengar,jim).  AS I stated before traditional teachers, like Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami, B.K.S Iyengar and many others are advising us to avoid meditation, japa, pranayama etc, if we still wobble back and forth between the lower states like anger, depression, jealousy etc.

Interestingly, Swami Sivananda encourages meditation, japa etc for controlling anger in his book, "Conquest of Anger" "http://salmun.cwahi.net/nrm/hind/dls/ang/anger.htm".  I would have expected Swami Sivananda to be on the side of the traditional masters on this issue.  But, to my surprise he advocates meditation, japa, etc, for anger.

Regards,
Ram.

[Etherfish]

Deep meditation as taught here, should definitely reduce stress and propensity to get angry. However, if one has stored anger due to refusal to experience it in the past, then part of the cleansing process brought about by meditation may bring this anger back again.

This can mistakenly be thought of as bringing anger, because when we have pure anger, we look for a reason to be angry, and might not distinguish this from old anger.
However, upon closer examination we can find that we are simply feeling anger released from the body, and all we need to do is experience it to let it go.

Personally I have a lot of this, and it has been going on for some time. I know for sure from self inquiry that this is not fresh anger somehow caused by meditation.
So if I were to avoid that which is bringing out old anger, true the anger would stop, but I would not be better off.
In my case, physical flexibility stretching releases more anger. I can tell it was stored because my body has been stiff for years, and only upon releasing of emotions does it allow me to incrementally move beyond certain limits. Funny thing is, one does not return to the original story of where the anger came from. It is just pure anger.
It has taken quite some time, and I'm not done yet.

This kind of anger should not be controlled; only experienced.

[Yuri]

Hi Rkishan

From my own experience and from practical point of view I found out that it's very important to separate anger caused by excess of energy and anger caused by lack/deficit of energy.

Sometimes people think that anger always means excess of energy and this is not always like this. When we don't have enough energy, we easily get angry, though this type of anger has more hysterical nature. This is more common for Vata-type (air-type) people (because they often lack internal fire), but really all types, even Pitta can get into it.

Practical implications are evident because if one does not have enough energy, he shall increase it. From my experience Sun salutation and stand asanas may be good (btw, Swami Satyananda whom you mentioned recommends to cure most of desases with Sun salutation - at least in the book I read). Also moderate (several seconds) breath retentions after inhale with concentratng on top of head (concentrating with feelings not with eyes) may be good. While if there is excess of energy, better do reverse asanas (moderate, not head stand, and not shoulder stand), and full yogic breathing with ratio 1:2 and optional moderate retentions after exhale.

In both cases moderate physical exercises with moderate sweating are good.

After one locates the right method to come to balance, then it's time to return to deep meditation

Just my 2 cents from practical point. Please remember that this is from my experience, yours may be different

[Yuri]

Hi Etherfish

quote:Deep meditation as taught here, should definitely reduce stress and propensity to get angry. However, if one has stored anger due to refusal to experience it in the past, then part of the cleansing process brought about by meditation may bring this anger back again.

What you mean is releasing of subconscious (suppressed) emotions and feelings which every DM releases. We quite our mind in order for High Self to get in, but first and before High Self - subconscious self sneaks in.

I think all people have it during DM to this or that extent.

If one can go (and wishes to go) to ashram/convent/hut to meditate - I mean - to leave the wordly life for several years and dedicate oneself totally to meditation - it's one thing. If however one wants to combine wordly life with meditation - it's another thing. The latter is more dangerous to health . Because we all are not saints. Well, at least me - for sure- enough suppressed stuff.

So once more I advocate finding ways/methods to bring balance back if once lost (and for sure if it does not exist in the beginning) - otherwise how to live our wordly life?! DM can't do it just because DM releases this stuff, and there is too much of this stuff, and we shall have enough resource to withstand.

[Etherfish]

Hi Yuri,
Yes that is what I was talking about. But i think it is just the opposite; if you withdraw from society I think it is more likely to bring out the suppressed emotions. If you are around other people at an ashram, they will bring it out. And if you are in a cave with nobody else, you don't have all the distractions of society and are left with only your mind to deal with.
That is why it is good that DM is so calm and peaceful to help get rid of stress, and it is good to have the distractions of everyday life in between to keep from too much release at once.

I don't know if the spiritual overload other people talk about here is the same thing as releasing too many stored emotions at once. But for me that is the danger. So I am happy to have a busy, non-spiritual life to keep me from having all those emotions to face at once. And the DM calms me also to make it easier.

[Jo-self]

While being respectful of traditions and prior wisdom is always wise, nevertheless, there has been progress. For example, before modern approaches such as TM, AYP, etc., the prevailing teaching was that meditation was "hard" and for advanced practitioners.  But, we have found that this is not true.  The mind is not like a busy monkey that must be forcibly controlled.  Instead, internal growth is the right of all and available to all.  

So, I agree with Yogani here.  But, the contraindications of meditation should be stated, even though one's experiences will vary over time.  In the medical literature there have been some references to the ill effects of meditation and how one must proceed carefully and other supervision (why some still insist on a Guru).  

Links
DSM-IV Religious and Spiritual Problems

Yoga Meditation in Severe Psychosis & Autism



-- jo-self

[Yuri]

Hi Etherfish

You mean that interactions with other people in daily life serve as a balance to DM/etc. Yes, I agree.

But this is a very light balance which IMHO will not withstand a serious storm. And when serious storm will come, what will you do with your regular job? With your spouse? With your wordly life? If you are in a cave, you have plenty of time and can allow weeks or months to re-collect. You may not have this time in "usual" life.

P.S. IMHO from spiritual point of view DM is not more spiritual than our "usual" life; it's just an energy exercise (also like spinal breathing, etc.). So I would not say

quote:a busy, non-spiritual life  

[Etherfish]

Originally posted by Yuri
Hi Etherfish

You mean that interactions with other people in daily life serve as a balance to DM/etc. Yes, I agree.
------------
DM causes stored emotions to be released, then interacting with people helps release them. Interacting with people also brings out karma and DM helps calm you to keep the stress down.
---------------
Yuri:

But this is a very light balance which IMHO will not withstand a serious storm. And when serious storm will come, what will you do with your regular job? With your spouse? With your wordly life? If you are in a cave, you have plenty of time and can allow weeks or months to re-collect. You may not have this time in "usual" life.
---------------
If you mean a serious spiritual storm, that is very unlikely with DM. Normal DM practice as prescribed in the Main Lessons or books is configured to prevent serious storms, using "self pacing".
============
Yuri:

P.S. IMHO from spiritual point of view DM is not more spiritual than our "usual" life; it's just an energy exercise (also like spinal breathing, etc.). So I would not say

quote:a busy, non-spiritual life  

What I mean is my life is filled with people and activities that don't refer to spirituality at all. This is a GOOD thing because it contributes to self pacing, as you will read in the lessons.

If you immerse yourself in spirituality, as you would in a cave, "spiritual overload" would be likely. Plus almost nobody could actually do this. We imagine an escape of some kind, but alone in a cave you are faced with all the things you want to escape from, because they are inside us.