164 From: "David Fiske" <david.fiske@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 2:16pm
Subject: The Need for a Guru fiskedavid
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Send Email
I was sent a paper by Maniram Kumar who must have read my post here.
Asking for my comments. It was a good paper on the kundalini Gnana
practices of the South Indian Siddhars, and I don't want to carp at
it. You appear to have done your homework Maniram. There is one
problem for me and that is the insistence on the need for a Guru.
" So a person, who desires to attain Gnanam, must learn, meditate,
reflect and realise at the feet of a Guru."
"First the aspirant is initiated by the Graceful touch of
the Gurudev. The aspirant feels the sensation of the biomagnetic
force in his body"
"The Gurudev, during initiation inducts the aspirant and surrenders
him to the Holy society of realised eternal souls. These spiritual
souls guide the aspirant all through his ways invisibly. This link
or connection with the divine beings guides the aspirant all through
his life guiding to wisdom."
If you read my book "Stalking Personal Power & Peace."(see topics on
my website) you will see I am not in favour of Guru worship at all.
I have noted far too much manipulation of devotee's zeal and in fact
their abuse one way or another.
I have learned much from teachers but have always remained rooted in
my own integrity and power. Surrendering at the feet of someone is
begging for them to wipe their feet on your prostrated head. You
will most likely experience that although you will probably redefine
the experience to make it comfortable to you eg my bad karma was
burnt up. They will probably also take your money.
Of course this isn't necessarily so and your own Guru might be a
most holy person.
"This Holy society consists of the Gnanis, all around the
world who are one with the universal magnetic field. They are
helping the world for ages.'
I think this is true. I have often told my students they don't know
of the ways I help them. It is the nature of life. Water flows down
a slope. Sometime there is a price for this, not just for the
student. You can get drained.
" By, the grace of Gurudev, he finds him everywhere. His
consciousness knows no bounds and he becomes one with the omniscient
Almighty.
. All the barriers of sex, caste, creed, religion, nationality
disappears in him."
Yes and also the barriers of Guru and disciple.
I don't know what else to say. Life is mysterious and knowledge
comes to those who seek it. I have been lucky with my teachers. I
honour them all. But my best teacher seems to have been an inside
job, i.e the guru in me.( Note how the AYP messages all ended).
Good luck.
Love, David
170 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:37am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru vic
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Send Email
This Maniram Kumar has also sent me the same email. I mistakenly htought that it was public so I responded. I realize now that you have not all read it so I will post it here. I will also post its followup when it is available.
Friends,
Its really heart breaking and feel sad when I come across your questions that you ask for "Triimming the frenulum" and others.
Really I feel Very Great, of my Gurudev, "His Holiness Gnanavallal ThangaSwamigal" who teaches us the Kundalini Gnana Path which is the path to self realization. It is not a yoga practice .it is Gnana practice .it starts with the realisation of your life force and proceeds to higer relisations of self.
Really as a truth seeker I couldnt stop myself saying ,"I really feel pity of you people".No physical turmoils,as in Hatha yoga that U practice .Once I tried to post an article of it in AYP but moderater moderated it.
I have made an attachment of an paper on Kundalini Gnanam.Read it.
with regards,
Maniram
Maniram,
the suffering that you feel is of your own creation. We are having fun and enjoying our practices very much. I feel pity on you for your judgemental attitude and lack of understanding.
David Fiske <david.fiske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
I was sent a paper by Maniram Kumar who must have read my post here.
Asking for my comments. It was a good paper on the kundalini Gnana
practices of the South Indian Siddhars, and I don't want to carp at
it. You appear to have done your homework Maniram. There is one
problem for me and that is the insistence on the need for a Guru.
" So a person, who desires to attain Gnanam, must learn, meditate,
reflect and realise at the feet of a Guru."
"First the aspirant is initiated by the Graceful touch of
the Gurudev. The aspirant feels the sensation of the biomagnetic
force in his body"
"The Gurudev, during initiation inducts the aspirant and surrenders
him to the Holy society of realised eternal souls. These spiritual
souls guide the aspirant all through his ways invisibly. This link
or connection with the divine beings guides the aspirant all through
his life guiding to wisdom."
If you read my book "Stalking Personal Power & Peace."(see topics on
my website) you will see I am not in favour of Guru worship at all.
I have noted far too much manipulation of devotee's zeal and in fact
their abuse one way or another.
I have learned much from teachers but have always remained rooted in
my own integrity and power. Surrendering at the feet of someone is
begging for them to wipe their feet on your prostrated head. You
will most likely experience that although you will probably redefine
the experience to make it comfortable to you eg my bad karma was
burnt up. They will probably also take your money.
Of course this isn't necessarily so and your own Guru might be a
most holy person.
"This Holy society consists of the Gnanis, all around the
world who are one with the universal magnetic field. They are
helping the world for ages.'
I think this is true. I have often told my students they don't know
of the ways I help them. It is the nature of life. Water flows down
a slope. Sometime there is a price for this, not just for the
student. You can get drained.
" By, the grace of Gurudev, he finds him everywhere. His
consciousness knows no bounds and he becomes one with the omniscient
Almighty.
. All the barriers of sex, caste, creed, religion, nationality
disappears in him."
Yes and also the barriers of Guru and disciple.
I don't know what else to say. Life is mysterious and knowledge
comes to those who seek it. I have been lucky with my teachers. I
honour them all. But my best teacher seems to have been an inside
job, i.e the guru in me.( Note how the AYP messages all ended).
Good luck.
Love, David
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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173 From: "David Fiske" <david.fiske@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:46am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru fiskedavid
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> This Maniram Kumar has also sent me the same email. I mistakenly
htought that it was public so I responded. I realize now that you
have not all read it so I will post it here. I will also post its
followup when it is available.
>
> Reading this I need to make one further response. In his paper
which was well written there was not exactly any indication of his
own experiences rather a repetition of the theory.
Love,
David
172 From: "Maniram Kumar A" <maniramkumar@mepcoeng.ac.in>
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 11:20pm
Subject: RE: The Need for a Guru maniramkumar
Send IM
Send Email
Dear David,
When a person wantan improvement in any spiritual field ,there is an need for an a person with higher levels of energy ,
so that he can get initiated from him.
A Guru works in his presence and out of his presence. Guru is certain energy, a certain space, not a person.
The relationship with Guru is neither physical, psychological nor emotional. It is beyond these limitations.
So this is one possible relationship that you carry on beyond body and mind.
An enduring relationship would be very essential for a person embarking on spiritual journey of
evolving himself to his ultimate nature. Guru clearly expounds all things
When a guru clearly expounds all things ,the phenomenon of oneness ,its true that the barriers of all are transcended,including the
distinction between Guru and disciple also . WHat to say & how to praise a higher energy(Guru)of such a great compassion, power &
love towards his dicsple.He when he shows the truth ,he show the real soul nature of his disciple i.e the inner Guru.Yes he
clearly expounds the inner Guru.He shows who U are & in words we can't express the gratitude towards Guru.There you are in one
with absolute.U cant find Ur integrity there.
Hope You get me now.
Anrequest to post the article in the forum is also asked & I have made an attachment now.
With regards,
maniram
-----Original Message-----
From: David Fiske [mailto:david.fiske@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thu 3/10/2005 12:46 AM
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AYPforum] The Need for a Guru
I was sent a paper by Maniram Kumar who must have read my post here.
Asking for my comments. It was a good paper on the kundalini Gnana
practices of the South Indian Siddhars, and I don't want to carp at
it. You appear to have done your homework Maniram. There is one
problem for me and that is the insistence on the need for a Guru.
" So a person, who desires to attain Gnanam, must learn, meditate,
reflect and realise at the feet of a Guru."
"First the aspirant is initiated by the Graceful touch of
the Gurudev. The aspirant feels the sensation of the biomagnetic
force in his body"
"The Gurudev, during initiation inducts the aspirant and surrenders
him to the Holy society of realised eternal souls. These spiritual
souls guide the aspirant all through his ways invisibly. This link
or connection with the divine beings guides the aspirant all through
his life guiding to wisdom."
If you read my book "Stalking Personal Power & Peace."(see topics on
my website) you will see I am not in favour of Guru worship at all.
I have noted far too much manipulation of devotee's zeal and in fact
their abuse one way or another.
I have learned much from teachers but have always remained rooted in
my own integrity and power. Surrendering at the feet of someone is
begging for them to wipe their feet on your prostrated head. You
will most likely experience that although you will probably redefine
the experience to make it comfortable to you eg my bad karma was
burnt up. They will probably also take your money.
Of course this isn't necessarily so and your own Guru might be a
most holy person.
"This Holy society consists of the Gnanis, all around the
world who are one with the universal magnetic field. They are
helping the world for ages.'
I think this is true. I have often told my students they don't know
of the ways I help them. It is the nature of life. Water flows down
a slope. Sometime there is a price for this, not just for the
student. You can get drained.
" By, the grace of Gurudev, he finds him everywhere. His
consciousness knows no bounds and he becomes one with the omniscient
Almighty.
. All the barriers of sex, caste, creed, religion, nationality
disappears in him."
Yes and also the barriers of Guru and disciple.
I don't know what else to say. Life is mysterious and knowledge
comes to those who seek it. I have been lucky with my teachers. I
honour them all. But my best teacher seems to have been an inside
job, i.e the guru in me.( Note how the AYP messages all ended).
Good luck.
Love, David
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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175 From: "David Fiske" <david.fiske@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:04am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru fiskedavid
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Maniram Kumar A"
<maniramkumar@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear David,
>
> When a person wantan improvement in any spiritual
field ,there is an need for an a person with higher levels of
energy ,
> so that he can get initiated from him.
>
Yes it is pleasant to have someone hold your hands to cross the road
but at some point you need to do it on your own.
The view you expound is the traditional one and it has merit.
There is something in you that strikes me as a bit fundamental. The
situation where one clings to something; out of need, out of
insecurity. One can outgrow that. Excuse me for saying this.
Truth does not become truth just because one repeats it. It is only
really vibrant when it stirs within you.
"Its really heart breaking and feel sad when I come across your
questions"
I suggest you keep your pity for starving animals and do something
about that and leave the folks here to discuss freely.
Love,
David
193 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:01am
Subject: Re: Re: The Need for a Guru vic
Offline
Send Email
Here is my further correspondence with Maniram. I have noticed a trend on this site of people trying to promote their own agendas or other practices. I feel that discussing the AYP lessons and our experiences with them should be plenty to fill a group and that is where my interest here lies. Anyway, here is the rest.....
From: victor yj [mailto:vic@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thu 3/10/2005 12:00 PM
To: Maniram Kumar A
Subject: RE: Hey, read this my friend
Very nice article on Kundalini. It is however advertising. What makes me so drawn to Yoganis teachings are that they are present for all to try. He is not trying to sell, create a cult, or draw attention to himself as a teacher. The teachings stand on their own. Maniram, have you read the AYP website? Have you done the practices? Or are you simply here to draw away people to your own path? They say that when the student is ready that the teacher appears.I have been practicing Yoga over 20 years and was at the point where this teaching of Yoganis was needed for my progress and it appeared. Please do not make light of that significance. If at some time I or (or others here) are ready for your path I am sure that it will once again present itself.
"The Guru Is In You"
from Maniram..........
Reading the AYP website ,It really made me to arise a question ,"Is so much of hardship,needed for sensing the subtle force & then comparing with my path and the various experiences ,I came to the decision that Let people knew this unknown secret path is prevalent and available .so I made the mail. Its depends on the way you take. Correct on both side.It may be the nature's call or my advt to draw people to my path.
The duty to convey this spiritual path to the people is my due towards the world. Its up to you to decide.
with regards,
Maniram
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194 From: "Georgia Victoria Weinkauf" <sss3333nnn@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:01am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru sss3333nnn
Offline
Send Email
Sat nam, Maniram,
Kundalini yoga, as taught by Yogi Bhajan is openly available to
WHOMEVER is interested. Yogi Bhajan BROKE THE SEAL OF SECRECY passed
on from
Master to Master and left India and moved to the United States where
he began his Life's Mission: to make these Secrets KNOWN TO THE WORLD,
so that ANYONE and EVERYONE may Benefit. He was a great Teacher,
Humanitarian, and GIFT to Planet Earth.Just type in his name at any
search engine, or go to 3HO.com(Happy, Healthy & Holy) to read more
about this remarkable man. (He set-up over 300 Drug Rehab Centers to
help people fill that VOID with Kundalini yoga.) This was MY DUTY and
Obligation to let YOU know of practical, every-day Kundalini yoga
practicce that can TRANSFORM your LIFE!!! I know it has MINE.
Love and Blessings,
Nirmal Kaur(spiritual name given to me by Yogi Bhajan, which means,
"Pure and Clean...One who IS Fearless and ONE with THE DIVINE Ecstacy."
> from Maniram..........
>
> Reading the AYP website ,It really made me to arise a question ,"Is
so much of hardship,needed for sensing the subtle force & then
comparing with my path and the various experiences ,I came to the
decision that Let people knew this unknown secret path is prevalent
and available .so I made the mail. Its depends on the way you take.
Correct on both side.It may be the nature's call or my advt to draw
people to my path.
> The duty to convey this spiritual path to the people is my due
towards the world. Its up to you to decide.
>
> with regards,
>
> Maniram
196 From: "Maniram Kumar A" <maniramkumar@mepcoeng.ac.in>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:58pm
Subject: RE: Re: The Need for a Guru maniramkumar
Send IM
Send Email
David ,
Thanks for the sincere comments u have added.Let me clarify a few things.
> you made a comment
>>>"I suggest you keep your pity for starving animals and do something
>>>about that and leave the folks here to discuss freely"
There is a proverb that says, "Known is like the sand ,full in hand, unknown is of the size of the world."
Really I dont know people not ready to ask details of the path before making comments.
And I want to clarify a few things ,
1. Nothing was written on the paper out of theory .its out of the experienceof the authors of various stages during our practice.They are not outcome of paper work.They are our experiences .
I have a few qestions also
2. Have you ever had practices that give you blissfull states all round the clock ,24 hrs/day,7days/week non stop continuously .
3. Have you ever practised samathi practices
4. Have you ever experienced samathi, going beyond your senses,transcending your mind .
5 .Have you ever experienced any stages of zero heart beat, breath.
6. Do you know what is going beyond senses.
7. Have you ever achieved the union of the inner energy,Kundalini with the external universal energy.
8. Have you experienced oneness with the universal phenomenon.
9. Have you experienced advaita stages of conciousness.
we have made this paper out of these experiences,that we experienced within a few years of practice .This made me to mail you people of the path that I follow & to post the paper by mail to you and in the files section.
I think it would make another few years, just like it took 20 years for gentle man to know abt Kechari.
oK all the best on your path .
With regards & prayers,
maniram
-----Original Message-----
From: David Fiske [mailto:david.fiske@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thu 3/10/2005 5:34 PM
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: The Need for a Guru
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Maniram Kumar A"
<maniramkumar@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear David,
>
> When a person wantan improvement in any spiritual
field ,there is an need for an a person with higher levels of
energy ,
> so that he can get initiated from him.
>
Yes it is pleasant to have someone hold your hands to cross the road
but at some point you need to do it on your own.
The view you expound is the traditional one and it has merit.
There is something in you that strikes me as a bit fundamental. The
situation where one clings to something; out of need, out of
insecurity. One can outgrow that. Excuse me for saying this.
Truth does not become truth just because one repeats it. It is only
really vibrant when it stirs within you.
"Its really heart breaking and feel sad when I come across your
questions"
I suggest you keep your pity for starving animals and do something
about that and leave the folks here to discuss freely.
Love,
David
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
click here <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1293ohnn4/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1705060955:HM/EXP=1110542730/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
201 From: "David Fiske" <david.fiske@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:42am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru fiskedavid
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Maniram Kumar A"
<maniramkumar@m...> wrote:
>
> David ,
>
> Thanks for the sincere comments u have added.Let me clarify a
few things.
> > you made a comment
Dear Maniram,
Thank you for the courtesy of your reply. I don't doubt you wanted
to share something valuable.
Re your questions for me. If you have the time please click on my
website
www.esotericarts.org to find answers to some of them.
I had some happy times in South India in '69. Ramana Maharishi's
ashram, Auroville, Kanya Kumari, temples in Madras, Mahabalipuram.
Your writings make me remember them.
It is one thing to be happy in what one does and another to feel sad
that others don't.
It is a little like someone posting a message "why don't you just
love Jesus?" to your Guru!
If you read the experiences of some of the people who wrote into
Yogani you will have noted they were enjoying greatly.
"Have you ever had practices that give you blissfull states all
round the clock ,24 hrs/day,7days/week non stop continuously ."
If this is truly your case I am glad for you; then you weon't have
minded my suggestion you use your pity on starving animals.
Love,
David
165 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Mar 9, 2005 4:56pm
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru... ashwinjlsun
Offline
Send Email
Dear David & All,
Thanks for bringing up the 'Guru' topic.
you said "...you will see I am not in favour of Guru
worship at all. I have noted far too much manipulation
of devotee's zeal and in fact their abuse one way or
another."
I agree that it is as possible to be fooled by 'false
Gurus' as it is to be taken by a lawyer, lied to by a
doctor, or scammed by an insurance company...but as
you also admit, there are REAL Gurus that are not out
to manipulate and 'feed off' their disciples.
you then said "I have learned much from teachers but
have always remained rooted in my own integrity and
power."
This is were the "Guru Within" must be used to discern
the false from the REAL Guru...excellent job...
Then "Surrendering at the feet of someone is begging
for them to wipe their feet on your prostrated head.
You will most likely experience that although you will
probably redefine the experience to make it
comfortable to you eg my bad karma was burnt up. They
will probably also take your money."
I used to be VERY VERY ANTI-Guru worship, and I still
won't use or become a "worshipper" of a Guru, but
sincere Devotion, real openness and trust, and the
acceptance of our own self in the face of the REAL
Guru is an undeniable power that eclipses all other
forces on earth. It is like having a role model
without the limitation, like having a parent with
undying Love, unwavering compassion, and unstoppable
Joy and acceptance...not to mention cosmic awareness!
I have kept a distance for a long time, although
meeting and following powerful teachers &
techniques...but recently, after finding a REAL Guru,
and putting myself 'at their feet', which simply means
to me surrendering to their light and love without
allowing my mind to close of my heart to their
awareness and love, found that years of trivialities
and confusions, addictions and judgments, have NOW
come to pass...simply by allowing GRACE to be with me
in my life. I find that each day, the amount of Joy,
clarity, and power I gain from my Sadhana is in direct
relation to how much Gratitude and Love I emit from my
core. YES the Guru IS WITHIN, thus my OWN choice in
each moment to emit Gratitude for Life, and to respond
to Life with Love yields a progressive evolution
towards stillness and ecstacy unknown of before, as I
now allow for the Guru 'within' to be reflected to me
from anothers Heart and Soul, the manifest Guru...as a
mirror of my own potential and acceptance as such.
I agree that caution should be used, and that the
monitoring of our progress should be from our own Guru
self within, seeing if we really are letting go and
becoming more empty and full of virtuous qualities,
and those around us that know and Love us directly.
There is an element of a REAL Guru that is
unexplainable, and their awareness and power is
unimaginable...how does he do that? (I hear alot)
I just had to respond and share this reality of mine,
for although it is usually foreign for westerners to
surrender to another human being, I find that if it is
a REAL Guru that we are surrendering to, that the only
limit on our own growth in relation to their Grace is
our own holding back...and lack of trust/faith...
Much Love & Light-
Namaste-
Ashwin Sun
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http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ 174 From: "David Fiske" <david.fiske@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:52am
Subject: Re: The Need for a Guru... fiskedavid
Offline
Send Email
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> Dear David & All,
>
> Thanks for bringing up the 'Guru' topic.
Ashwin,
Thank you for writing so clearly and in such detail.
Everything is perspective and need. If it suits you I am happy you
have found what you want. For myself I like my own authority. This
is not arrogance just a recognition of what is, for me.
Giving your authority over your power to someone else does not
resonate with me.
I like to say that if enlightenment means anything it means being
able to be yourSelf.
Love,
David
178 From: Ashwin Sun <ashwinjlsun@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:50am
Subject: Re: Re: The Need for a Guru... ashwinjlsun
Offline
Send Email
Dear David,
I would not say it the way you have worded it...I am
also similar to you in that I don't see it as "giving
my power over to another", or "giving up my authority
over mySelf", but simply be open and allowing the Guru
to be a vibrational mirror of an infintie nature. It
is like how when you went and meditated with
Maharishi(I think that was you...) and something
amazing happened! It is allowing for them to blast us
with an energy that we ourselves have not allowed out,
or are somehow keeping hidden within ourselves due to
lack of undertanding, or whatever... Thanks for
helping me clarify for myself my own understanding and
approach to my Teacher. I DO keep my own authority to
make my choices, I am not a puppet, simply someone who
experiences directly, as I believe you have from some
of your teachers, an immense amount of energy and
awareness around these fully aware beings, and out of
appreciation for their sharing, and devotion to my own
growth and Self, I open up to them and follow them
with Joy and Love...
Thanks,
Ashwin
--- David Fiske <david.fiske@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ashwin Sun
> <ashwinjlsun@y...> wrote:
> > Dear David & All,
> >
> > Thanks for bringing up the 'Guru' topic.
> Ashwin,
> Thank you for writing so clearly and in such detail.
>
> Everything is perspective and need. If it suits you
> I am happy you
> have found what you want. For myself I like my own
> authority. This
> is not arrogance just a recognition of what is, for
> me.
>
> Giving your authority over your power to someone
> else does not
> resonate with me.
> I like to say that if enlightenment means anything
> it means being
> able to be yourSelf.
>
> Love,
> David
>
