quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
Are these scientifically proven facts.. or are these just experiences.
Hi Shweta,
Interesting turn of phrase - it seems like you're saying, "Is this
stuff that actually happened or stuff that actually happened?"
![[;)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_wink.gif "Wink")
Or, put maybe a slightly different way, "Were these experiences documented, and if so, were they documented by the philosophically and scientifically constricted disciplines which are known as "Western Science"?
I would say the news is *much* better than your best stated possibility --- these facts under consideration are yogically proven facts!
![[8D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_cool.gif "Cool")
Western Science has quite a ways to go, to be able to sign-off on some the the more subtle truths of yoga -- but they're actually get there fairly quickly (tools like fMRI and PET scans - Positron Emissions Tomography - are starting to be able to measure and document many of the more subtle processes taking place in the brain, when certain subtle energies are moved.
However, it may be a LONG time before Western Science will sign off on the chakra symbols -- but as far as we know, they're available (to see) for everyone -- our own bioindividuality determines how much of a given astral / etheric plane level that a sadaka can perceive at a given time --- but most people who see anything astrally (what I call the "ghost body" we see with our eyes shut, or chakra lights in our body, or emanating from hands and feet, a bit of third-eye action, etc. -- these other symbols present themselves to each sadhaka.
Meaning: the Vedic Rishis main have been the first to describe the symbols, but they're not "artistic designs symboizing the chakras", they are "artistic descriptions of what each relatively advanced sadhaka saw".
As you probably know, mantras are something we have in form, but which were first given to the world by Rishis in Samadhi (good movie title, if you ever need one .... Mo-oo-om! Can we go to see
Rishis in Samadhi on Tuesday? It starts at 5:42 ....)
Anyway, the mantras were heard - but not designed / made-up, but now, we as meditators take them, and work with them, until the outer shell of the sound-form effectively mutates into something far different - at which time it is a very individual tool, which science can't really measure (in ways they can measure someone chanting a mantra, and be confident that the "mantra is doing something" (way rajasic, those boys in the labs coats .....
)
quote:
I mean is there something physical called kundalini..
There is something that is either partially physically, or that very directly affects physical processes and reactions, deeply, throughout the body-mind system, called kundalini.
Western science can't pinpoint (and therefore lapses into a rather odd, non-scientific denial about it -- science isn't based on being to find the cause, science is based on credibly researching large populations of subjects, who have repeated and verifiable experiences in areas of medical interest.
Imagine, if tomorrow morning, everyone woke up with an extra nose on their face.
Science would set about finding a reason (while creating a syndrome with a fancy name, along with the popular prescription regimen, and a nationwide network for the Bi-Nasal (Bi-Nosal?).
However, they didn't find a cause for Bi-Nasalism, they wouldn't come back and say: we're sorry, you don't have two noses - you must be mistaken. Maybe you just really thought you did. Lots of things could make you feel like to have two noses -- like that big 'ol pimple, right th ....
Yet that's exactly what they do vis a vis kundalini - which is just plain dumb, for any scientific discipline --- because passing it off, and denying its credibility, simply because the number of people experience kundalini symptoms has not be documented formally enough, or over a long enough period of time, to satisfying Western science.
And none of that makes kundalini the slighest bit less real; many of us here at AYP experience direct, replicable kundaline experiences -- the exact same ones that were described roughly 3,500 years ago.
Conservatively, a good ten or twenty million people have probably seen, personally, all of these portions of their astral bodies - including the chakra symbols.
It's not uncommon at all for someone to "see" a chakra for the first time - and they report something very similar, to the general designs and colors given for each chakra.
It's kind of like (actually is) part of our astral body - so your muladhara chakra may look slight different than mine - in the ways that our physical bodies two - but the general feel / shape of it certainly has a general "vibe" that's quite close, including the authentically seen color.
So, again - Western science doesn't accept verification of subtle energies as a rule -- but many Eastern disciplines (Chinese systems with Qi, Japanese with Ki, Indian with energies like Prana and Kundalini) -- there is documented evidence of entire healthcare systems, for
millenia, who heal based on their awareness of these energies.
To me, it seems pretty arrogant that a 200 year old (or so) scientific system decides if they'll "sign off" on a 7000+ year old (or more - know one really knows when yoga started) series of systems, that clearly produces replicably results in practitioners, all over the world - and for several thousand years total.
(And please know, Shweta - I'm not directing any of this *at* you -- at all -
![[:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif "Smile")
-- and I'm trying to answering your question honestly:
*No these energies are not accepted by the Western medical world.
*No these energies can not be directly measured or perceived (except by sadhakas who have practiced enough to be able to experience these things personally - and many AYPers, including myself, have this ability - that's one of the reasons I'm so emphatic.
*Yes, these energies are real, and Eastern scientific method has shown that Yogic sages have understood that certain levels of perception expand at certain points in a sadhakas practices -- and that astral vision (and connected vision / ability to see, aspects of our subtle / internal body, such as the chakras, spinal nerve, etc.) will be part of the deal -- for every sadhaka.
As Yogani says: we're wired for it.
And it's not like a few hundred people have experienced these things since Yogani mentioned them at AYP ---- tens of millions of people have experienced them, since before Sri Patanjali codified the Yoga Sutras way back when.
quote:
if not, how do people know it is coiled three and a half times?
Relatively advanced sadhakas, and/or rishis have seen it via astral vision, while in samadhi, and reported what they saw.
quote:
The spinal nerve is real..
Well, it's as real or not as the other stuff, I'd say -- what we call the spinal nerve, and what the yogic world calls the Sushumna is not identical to the twin bundles of nerves that wind down through the spine. The way the spinal nerve is experienced, it's more like there's a single nerve, running up the middle of the spine - and physically (if anatomy memory serves me) - that's more the location of the cerebrospinal fluid - as opposed to any long nerve or bundle of nerves.
Personally (and I think physical anatomy supports this, at least for the most part) - I feel the Ida and Pingala are the nerve bundles on either side of the spine, and the sushumna is the cerebrospinal fluid running up the middle.
Their astral counterparts however, do not look exactly the same, norare they in exactly the same place phsyically ("astral" isn't "direct overlay of phsyical", astral is "somewhat similar location and function - possibly very different appearance" --- for instance, no actual astral chakra looks anything like the nerve plexxi or glands which serve at it's physical counterpart.
To me though, to say it's therefore less real, is kind of like say "ultra-violet isn't part of the light spectrum" because we can't see it! (Which is exactly what they *did* say, until "objective" equipment could perceive and measure it.)
That capability with astral body stuff may take a bit longer, but who knows - I truly do feel, for instance, that kundalini is carried in conjunction with our physical nerve energy (and related glandular and biochemical processes) in the same kind of way that prana is carry via the breath --- and just as breath has prana in it, physical nerve impulses have kundalini / shakti in them.
well is the chitra? I'm actually not familiar with it - but I think it's safe to say that it's in the same class as all the other "astral stuff" discussed in this post.
and these 5 colors that it has.. are they real physical colors, that I could see with an color MRI.. No, they're real astral colors that you can see in meditation.
or is it something else that the enlightened have seen and told us about? Not necessarily the enlightened - though they kind of handed down the maps, but I've seen the Ida, Pingala and Sushumna - fairly often, lately - and I've seen a few other posts to that effect, as well.
How about the Ida and Pingla... real? Absolutely! Every bit as real as your rapidly opening heart chakra, and the neurophysical and biochemical actions which help to facilitate that opening, and which emanate throughout your physical body as effects.
The tough part is getting a Western doctor to agree on the
reasons for any related symptoms -- they'll likely say it's an idiopathic* syndrome that appears to be having moderates effects on your energy and emotions. So, get some rest, eat well, and take several of the really expensive pills which the FDA just approved, for the rest of your natural life. Have a nice day.
(*Idiopathic is "ten-dollar-word M.D.-speak" for "We have no idea what the hell is going on here.")
Is there a physical way to see if they are pale and bright? Nope. Astrally is no problem, though. They're pale and bright.
I hope I am not making a fool of myself asking these question.. and if I am.. so be it.. I have done it way too many times already[:p].. so once more wont hurt.
![[:I]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_blush.gif "Blush")
[/quote]
True ....
.... though A. I wouldn't use the word "fool", and B. may we all have the courage to do the same.
A year ago, or a little more --- I could have written your part of this post; it felt a lot different before I started seeing some of this stuff for myself.
It was a lot easier to lean on (as we've been so strongly taught) to use the clearly empirical wisdom of Western science -- though I personally see that as governing by consensus.
It sounds ludicrous to say this in a physical-plane only context - but I don't tend to do that much, these days.
It's like, if I see a black rock - and you see a black rock - I note: "Black Rock sighted at 14:14 hours. Our Black Rock research team shall now observe the aforementioned rock (black) in its natural habitat, and report on findings. 14:24 Black rocks do absolutely nothing in their natural habit. This concludes our report.
A little bit later, another crack scientic team shows up - one with a vast degree of knowledge - and sets up shop. "Dark Gray rock sighted at 14:40 hours ...."
I mean, how many times have you seen recently where astromers and physicists have decided that Dark Energy ( / Dark Matter / The comet that somehow was formed of material from the Sun, but too far out in space for this to have happened / String Theory / Quantum Physics / Quantum Consciousness / Janet Jackson's Right Breast) -- holds the key to the mysteries of life, in recent months / years.
They don't freakin' know! They have NO clue regarding how things really work -- from the Cosmos, to the sub-atomic universes, to the human body, to (especially) the human mind --- they really don't know.
Have you ever heard, "Well, we don't know exactly how this medication might reduce your symptoms, and not a super lot of people died once we were pretty sure we fixed it, so take some - heck, I'll give you three refills ....!"
Bottom Line is:
Shweta, I truly respect your post, and the essence of it --- I just don't think that saying "the jury will be out on this" until Western science can measure it --- you're gonna have a VERY irritated journey, who will kill for something other than take-out pizza by 2009 or so - because things won't change much before the next few years, at least.
I'd say: continue your practices --- and you'll see.
These astral images and archetypes are images, yes -- but so, in many senses, are our phsyical organs - the perception, meaning and approximation of reality of a given item is largely dependent upon its plane -- but to say that the physical solar plexus of nerves in our body is less real than that astral manipura chakra - is like saying that green is more real than ultra-violet .... that's simply not a true statement, but if you only have human eyes to see with, and no measuring equipment --- it sure seems like a true statement.
Essentially, human body-minds are perception machines - like radio receivers.
Yoga practice helps us to expand out range of perception - in terms of quality, quantity and range.
Old radios in the U.S. used to play AM & FM stations - and out in the boonies, AM was all you could get -- and 90% of all AM stations were designed for country music loving ultra-conservative born again Christian preachers.
So, when either "radio upgrade", or getting back into a major city again - you felt like, "Ahhh, I have so much more choice, concerning what I can see and hear -- and this whole strata (FM) is *better* than that old AM stuff!
The Astral plane (including being able to see things like chakras), feels like that (it's better!) which is not really true at all ... but just as it's nice to be able to see physically, it's nice to be able to see astrally as well (and mentally / causally, when we hit that point - which is probably kind of like satellite XM radio!)
I think that analogy carries, too --- being able to perceive so many more radio stations at different qualities - can be a nice addition to whatever journey you're taking -- but if the radio stations, or a certain type of content becomes a greater priority, than say - the trip you're on, or your destination --- it may be time to re-evaluate priorities.
For me, the chakra article I passed on what kind of like a good physical health article in a magazine - it offered some info we may not have had before, and may have helped us to kind of "connect the dots" concerning that kind of information (chakras, nadis, etc.).
I hope this reply was helpful.
I'm now coming out of my antioxidant infused semi-psychotic state and am going to practice Extreme Yoga Nidra for a few hours (aka Good Old Fashioned Shut-Eye!)
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
