Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity

[VIL]

Great post, Phillip.  Another fount of wisdom:



VIL

[Doc]

Greetings Everyone!

"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love, and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God, with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God. So, therefore, never give up your resolve, but beat away at this cloud of unknowing between you and God with that sharp dart of longing love. And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."

From 'The Cloud of Unknowing'

Hari OM!

Doc

[VIL]

I really needed that, Doc.  Good advice, like when Jim And His Karma said to just "relax".

Thanks again, to both of you:



VIL

[Doc]

Namaste VIL:

Glad you liked it.  

The Real Strength and Greatest Power of True Knowledge (Gnosis) and Sacred Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) is most often found in profound simplicity. Less can actually be More!

Thus, Quality of Knowledge, rather than Quantity of Knowledge, is the Master Key. As such, Illuminated Union with God through Spiritual Self-Cultivation always ciphers through an equation of subraction not addition!

Hari OM!

Doc

[Christi]

Hi Doc,
 

quote:"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love, and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God, with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God. So, therefore, never give up your resolve, but beat away at this cloud of unknowing between you and God with that sharp dart of longing love. And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."

From 'The Cloud of Unknowing'

I agree, it is great to be reminded that experience is what really counts in the spiritual process, and that love is the most important thing. This is what all the greatest Gnostics have taught, especially Jesus of Nazareth. Many great Christians have taught this too, which helps us to see that there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We really need to strive to understand each other and rise beyond sectarian divisions here. It doesn't serve any of us, and, as Yogani said, can drive people away.
Personally I find it difficult to hold an intelligent conversation about something as deep as esoteric spirital practice, if you keep shouting "heritic" from the side-lines, every time someone's practices do not fall in line with your particular brand of Orthodox Christianity or Advaita Yogic views. There are many of us on this path, and we draw from many traditions. We cannot really judge another path until we have walked it.
Don't forget:
Tollerance[]
Love[8D]
"Judge not lest others should judge you" (anonymous Gnostic[])

Christi

[VIL]

quote:Christi:  there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We really need to strive to understand each other and rise beyond sectarian divisions here. It doesn't serve any of us, and, as Yogani said, can drive people away.

It's funny that you should mention that, Christi, because we all have preconceived notions, biases, et al, and I remember having a conversation with my sister concerning Wicca, since she's really interested in this.  And so she was questioning me, as to what I felt about it and I explained that I didn't have any interest in that. LOL. [I know better:  ].

So, I was doing my regular research of various spiritual topics the other day and it just so happens that I stumbled on an amazing article from a woman that was really into witchcraft, magic, etc.  Normally, I'd roll my eyes, but I decided to remove my blinders and really look from her perspective and see what she said about the topic I was researching.  In all honesty,  I was amazed at her depth of knowledge and understanding of spirituality. She gave me new perspective on subject matter that I really never considered, but was EXACTLY what I needed.  Again, I was truly shocked at her wisdom and breadth of knowledge.

Anyway, It's amazing that we all create our comfort levels, put God in a box, and how often He'll let you know that he can't be contained, is unknowable, and will remain as so.  

It's all about sincerity of purpose and spirituality has nothing to do with dogma.  So much understanding is bipased, because we all think that one path is maybe a little greater than another.  Or that maybe we have just a little more understanding than this person or that one.  It was a beautiful lesson of humility. And the more I learn.  The more I think I know.  The less I really do.

When we realize this it brings us closer to each other.  To me, that's true Oneness.  To feel connected with people, to get rid of judgements and opinions.

Anyway, great post, Christi:

VIL

[Doc]

quote:Originally posted by Christi:

"I agree, it is great to be reminded that experience is what really counts in the spiritual process, and that love is the most important thing. Many great Christians have taught this too, which helps us to see that there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We cannot really judge another path until we have walked it."

'The Cloud of Unknowing' IS an example of Christian Mystical Writings, so its teachings obviously stem from the perspective of a Christian Spiritual Path and Practice.

Although your undoubtedly good intentions, Christi, and your attempted diplomacy, are both appreciated and admired, your opinion that "there is really very little difference between the Gnostic Teachings and the Orthodox Christian Teachings" is absolutely not true. While there may be some minor points of philosophical and theological agreement between the two, they remain quite different on the whole. This is particularly so in regards to what Christians view as the most fundamental theological issues...such as the Nature of God and the Trinity, the Divine Nature of Christ, the Reality of the Resurrection, and other crucial issues which define Christianity at its very core, and without a correct understanding of which....there can be no Christianity.

It is for this reason that I subject myself to your esteemed disapproval in order to confront those who 1) are not Christians, as this is generally understood to mean by the overwhelming majority of those who do profess to be Christians; and 2) insist nonetheless to proclaim their minority views and opinions as the most accurate and valid interpretations of Christianity. I would feel remiss not to address these issues.

Additionally, it is very interesting to be told that "we cannot really judge another path until we have walked it", yet this is exactly what I encounter ALL THE TIME! I am regularly told that alternate teachings on Christianity, from a wide variety of non-Christian 'authorities', should be accepted as the true explanation of Christianity and the person of Jesus, even though these so-called 'authorities' DO NOT follow a Christian Spiritual Path. They strive only to explain Jesus and His Teachings according to the alternate perspective of their own Spiritual Paths.

As an Ordained Clergyman, with extensive formal religious education required to serve as such, I feel very well suited to represent a Traditional Christian perspective on these issues.  I have chosen do so for the sake of clarity, as few of those posting on this thread appear to have a solid Christian religious education, or a factual knowledge of Christian Church History. For the sake of fairness and equanimity, is it so unacceptable that even one lone voice should arise to speak authoritatively on behalf of mainstream Christianity?

Doc


 

[david_obsidian]

Whereas I am neutral on the subject matter,  I have to say great job on that last post, Doc.  You stated your case very well,  without trying to cut anyone else down to size.

So the sage is firm but not cutting,
Pointed but not piercing,
Straight but not rigid,
Bright but not blinding.
To govern men in accord with nature
It is best to be restrained;
Restraint makes agreement easy to attain,
And easy agreement builds harmonious relationships;
With sufficient harmony no resistance will arise;
When no resistance arises, then you possess the heart of the nation,
And when you possess the nation's heart, your influence will long endure:
Deeply rooted and firmly established.
This is the method of far sight and long life.
  "Tao De Ching -- Lao Tzu " via Peter A. Merel

[Christi]

Hi Doc:
 

quote:'The Cloud of Unknowing' IS an example of Christian Mystical Writings, so its teachings obviously stem from the perspective of a Christian Spiritual Path and Practice.

I was aware that the Cloud of unknowing is a Christian writing. I was trying to point out that the quote you used would be equally applicable  to both Gnostic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity. In fact it could easily have been written by a Gnostic Christian.
 

quote:Although your undoubtedly good intentions, Christi, and your attempted diplomacy, are both appreciated and admired, your opinion that "there is really very little difference between the Gnostic Teachings and the Orthodox Christian Teachings" is absolutely not true. While there may be some minor points of philosophical and theological agreement between the two, they remain quite different on the whole. This is particularly so in regards to what Christians view as the most fundamental theological issues...such as the Nature of God and the Trinity, the Divine Nature of Christ, the Reality of the Resurrection, and other crucial issues which define Christianity at its very core, and without a correct understanding of which....there can be no Christianity.

Well... if you are right here, then I would be simply astonished.
Gnostic Christians believe in the Divine nature of Christ, as do Orthodox Christians. Gnostics believe in the reality of the Resurrection, as do Orthodox Christians. In fact much of what Philip has quoted from above is based on teachings given by Jesus Christ to his disiples, after the resurection and is a Gnostic text.
Gnostic Christians and Orthodox Christians also both believe in the divine nature of God (the Logos) and in the Trinity. This is a quote from a Gnostic Christian website:
 

quote:The Logos has three aspects, known universally as the Trinity or Trimurti. The First Logos is the Father, Brahma. The Second Logos is the Son, Vishnu. The Third Logos is the Holy Spirit, Shiva. One who incarnates the Logos becomes a Logos.

So in terms of central Tennets of faith (if that is what you call them) i really do not see any real difference between Orthodox Christianity and Gnostic Christianity. I also do not see any essential differences in terms of praxis in either tradition.
Perhaps the confusion here is that you are reffering to a different school of Gnostic teachings than Philip is reffering to, as Philip pointed out above.
 

quote:Additionally, it is very interesting to be told that "we cannot really judge another path until we have walked it", yet this is exactly what I encounter ALL THE TIME! I am regularly told that alternate teachings on Christianity, from a wide variety of non-Christian 'authorities', should be accepted as the true explanation of Christianity and the person of Jesus, even though these so-called 'authorities' DO NOT follow a Christian Spiritual Path. They strive only to explain Jesus and His Teachings according to the alternate perspective of their own Spiritual Paths.

Just because other people do it to you, doesn't justify returning the insult. Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"? (JC)
 

quote:As an Ordained Clergyman, with extensive formal religious education required to serve as such, I feel very well suited to represent a Traditional Christian perspective on these issues. I have chosen do so for the sake of clarity, as few of those posting on this thread appear to have a solid Christian religious education, or a factual knowledge of Christian Church History. For the sake of fairness and equanimity, is it so unacceptable that even one lone voice should arise to speak authoritatively on behalf of mainstream Christianity?

Pointing something out for the sake of clarity is one thing, and personally I welcome it, as long as it is done in an appropriate manner. Continually bashing someone over the head with a bible is another thing, and is (in my opinion) a form of unnecessary violence.
Christi

[Philip]

There is multitude of different traditions that use the word "Gnostic," both historically and today. The differences between these groups varies significantly. It would, therefore, be incorrect to assume exactly what I understand to be the gnosis of something if I have not yet expressed it specifically. I have already clearly stated that many of things I am speaking of here opposes the view expressed by many (most) religions. If someone wants to further that point it is not of my concern, except to clarify any misconceptions as to what exactly I am stating.

What I understand 'gnosis' to be is that universal root wisdom upon which all forms of religion have their basis.

If all religions are pearls strung on the golden thread of divinity, then gnosis is the same golden thread.

I understand Gnostic Christianity as taught by "Jesus" is the most potent and synthesized form of religion that has be expressed on Earth. Nevertheless, the physical presence of such a sect has always been hidden, yet, partially diluted, divulged and mutilated by the good intentions of men.

I understand that the same principles exist in all religions, namely the Christ principle.

I understand the Christ principle to be the Ray of Light that emanates from the Absolute Abstract Space through supreme and absolute sacrifice, for love of the world.

quote:The teachings of the Zend Avesta are in accordance with the doctrinal principles contained in the Egyptian book of the dead, and contain the Christ-principle. The Illiad of Homer, the Hebrew Bible, the Germanic Edda and the Sibylline Books of the Romans contain the same Christ-principle. All these are sufficient in order to demonstrate that Christ is anterior to Jesus of Nazareth. Christ is not one individual alone. Christ is a cosmic principle that we must assimilate within our own physical, psychic, somatic and spiritual nature…

Among the Persians, Christ is Ormuz, Ahura Mazda, terrible enemy of Ahriman (Satan), which we carry within us. Amongst the Hindus, Krishna is Christ; thus, the gospel of Krishna is very similar to that of Jesus of Nazareth. Among the Egyptians, Christ is Osiris and whosoever incarnated him was in fact an Osirified One. Amongst the Chinese, the Cosmic Christ is Fu Hi, who composed the I-Ching (The Book of Laws) and who nominated Dragon Ministers. Among the Greeks, Christ is called Zeus, Jupiter, the Father of the Gods. Among the Aztecs, Christ is Quetzalcoatl, the Mexican Christ. In the Germanic Edda, Baldur is the Christ who was assassinated by Hodur, God of War, with an arrow made from a twig of mistletoe, etc. In like manner, we can cite the Cosmic Christ within thousands of ancient texts and old traditions which hail from millions of years before Jesus. The whole of this invites us to embrace that Christ is a cosmic principle contained within the essential principles of all religions.

– Samael Aun Weor, The Perfect Matrimony

I understand that Jesus purposefully played out the Christic Drama, giving a public teaching through his very life.

I understand that not only did Jesus die and resurrect, but many have done so, and indeed is a matter of necessity in order to become a real "Christian," for only when one dies absolutely does Christ absolutely manifest within.

If Christ were electricity, then the many who have incarnated Him would be the many different types of bulbs that exist: some are low wattage, some are high wattage, some produce a muffled light, some produce a very clear light. Additionally, different bulbs are needed for the requirements of the development of different parts of humanity.

As I stated before, John inwardly represents the interior Master, the Atman, the Innermost, Chesed. He was the prophet Elijah, which is pronounced like EL-IAO in Hebrew. So, the interior John is the messenger to the interior IAO, the interior Christ.

John is I.E.O.U.A.N., or better said: IEOUAMS (Seven Letters, related with the Seven Churches or Chakras), representing the "seven-fold" spirit of man in Revelation. This is the complete man.

quote:6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all men (a real IEOUAMS) through him (Christ) might believe.

 8He (John, IEOUAMS) was not that Light (Christ), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (through the incarnation of Christ).

 9That was the true Light (Christ), which lighteth every man (IEOUAMS) that cometh into the world.

 10He was in the world (of our subconscious), and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not (because the darkness, our sub/un/infraconsciousness does not understand the light, Christ).

 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 12But as many as received (incarnated) him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

-John 1

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - John 3:9

 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. - Galatians 3:16

I understand that Jesus was not the only Son of God. There are many Sons of God, because they are one with the One Son of God which is Christ. The Sons of God are those that have incarnated the Cosmic Christ: those that have been born again, born of God, through the science of alchemy, changing water (sexual energy) into wine (that which gives god-intoxication: rapture, satori, samadhi, etc.), which is sexual transmutation.

quote:"Much has been stated about the Hierophant Jesus, however, the fact is that nobody knows his personal biography. The tendency to castrate the Hierophant Jesus exists. The Christian sects depict an infrasexual Jesus, effeminate, weak; yet at times angry, like a whimsical woman. Naturally, all of this is absurd. The fact is that nobody knows the personal life of Jesus, because we do not have his biography. Only with the faculties of objective clairvoyance can we study the life of Jesus in the Akasic Records of Nature...

We know the life of the Great Master and we know that Jesus was really a complete man in the fullest sense of the word. Jesus had a priestess wife, because he was not an infrasexual. The wife of Jesus was evidently a complete Lady Adept, endowed with great secret powers. Jesus traveled through Europe and was a member of a Mediterranean Mystery School. Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids. That is how he recapitulated the initiations and later achieved the Venustic Initiation. Jesus traveled through Persia, India, etc. Thus, the Great Master was a Master in the most complete sense of the word. Jesus lived the drama of the Passion; nonetheless, he was not the only one who has lived it. Prior to him, some Initiates like Hermes, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Orpheus, Buddha etc., lived it. After Him, a few others have lived it. The drama of the Passion is cosmic...  

Jesus was a complete man. Jesus was not the castrated one who many religions depicted. Jesus followed the Path of the Perfect Matrimony. Jesus formed the Christ within himself by practicing Sexual Magic with his wife. What we are stating will shock fanatics... - The Perfect Matrimony

[david_obsidian]

Samael Aun Weor said:
Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids.

Philip, how does Samael Aun Weor purport to know this?

[Philip]

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian

Samael Aun Weor said:
Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids.

Philip, how does Samael Aun Weor purport to know this?

Only with the faculties of objective clairvoyance can we study the life of Jesus in the Akasic Records of Nature... -Samael Aun Weor

Objective clairvoyance is a vipassana of the highest order.

quote:Insight. Vi comes from viesa which means “special” or “superior.” Ashana means “to perceive.” So Vipassana means “to perceive the superior.” Related to the Tibetan hlagtong: “To see the special.” Vipassana is the discrimination of phenomena. True Vipassana is achieved through the conscious use of the imagination, often called "clairvoyance."

http://www.gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/the-gnostic-jesus/

[david_obsidian]

I see.  Uh-huh.  We have to have special powers like Samael Aun Weor, and only then will we see what Samael Aun Weor sees:

Saith Samael Aun Weor:
"Many people believe that Samael is just a pseudonym. No! Indeed, I am Samael! By yourselves, you have read that in Kabbalah that Samael is classified as the angel regent of Mars. In the Bible, Samael is classified as a demon. It does not matter! The fact is that I am Samael! ......"

".... Samael Aun Weor is my true name as a Boddhisattwa. Samael is the name of my Monad! I am perfectly cognizant of the dawn of life in this Solar System! I saw the dawning of Creation! I am here with this humanity, from the very first moment, since the heart of this solar system started to palpitate after the long Cosmic Night. I came here (to this planet) because my Internal God, my Father who is within me, sent me! My only purpose is to serve and help this humanity! This is why I am serving my fellowmen. This is why I am working for the sake of this humanity! ..."

So let me see: God sent Samael, and gave him great powers to see things that the rest of can't (like Jesus having sex with his gal in the pyramid).  Sounds fine and dandy so far -- but I'm just scratching my head here wondering why God didn't give the One he Sent the ability to prove to the world that he can accurately see stuff that we can't?

Can you cast any light on that Philip?

[Philip]

quote:Can you cast any light on that Philip?

Well, the facts are, he did have the ability to prove to the word that he can accurately see stuff that we can't, and so do and did many, many, many of other people. C. W. Leadbeater (a purported "pedophile" by his enemies), actually did just this when he discovered isotopes years before official science using his clairvoyance. Concerning Samael Aun Weor, he proved himself endlessly to those around him, and even was incarcerated by Roman Catholic Church for "healing the sick without permission." He was so hated by the people around him that he had to flee into the jungles in order to avoid being killed by mobs of enemies because suddenly his "proof" was witchcraft, sorcery. Don't you get it? Do you comprehend the nature of this world?

Regardless, it was not his concern to go off showing people "powers," for the same reason all the arhats, yogis, saints, etc., who also have these powers did not. They are acts of God not to be toyed around with, but when they were needed, they were used. Otherwise, for what? To get more believers? God has no interest in believers. He could of had all the believers in the world, but that doesn't make someone happy, that does not remove one's suffering.

Love your enemies with all your heart and with all of your soul. Kiss the whip of your executioner, bless those who damn and persecute you; return good for evil.

Beloved brethren, I have the high honor of inviting you to a constant epistolary interchange, but please I beg you, I beseech you, do not send me any type of praise, adulations or cheers.

It is urgent, it is indispensable, for you to comprehend that I, as a person, am insignificant; I am worth a little bit less than the ashes of a cigarette. Thus, I am somebody who indeed does not have the least bit of importance.

Therefore, with much sincerity I tell you that any letter containing praise, adulation and cheers with be rejected.

Treat me heart to heart, from good to good, from love to love. Remember that Hermetic maxim that states: I give thee love within which the whole sumum of wisdom is contained.

To my worst enemies, those who hate me, damn and persecute me too much, those who criticize my books, I send them through this Christmas Message a fraternal hug filled with true love.

I adore my enemies; I adore my critics and wish for all of them, as is natural, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. - Samael Aun Weor

[VIL]

quote:david_obsidian: So let me see: God sent Samael, and gave him great powers to see things that the rest of can't (like Jesus having sex with his gal in the pyramid). Sounds fine and dandy so far -- but I'm just scratching my head here wondering why God didn't give the One he Sent the ability to prove to the world that he can accurately see stuff that we can't?

Can you cast any light on that Philip?

I'm not a proponent for or against Samael Aun Weor, but it stands to reason that these same questions surely caused a lot of head scratching from the hypocrites of Christ's time, too; but never allayed their satiation of knowing Christ's true station by way of taunting or proof.

VIL