John of God -- Psychic Surgeon

[bliss_]

There is this Brazilian medium who for 30 years has been healing people (paraplegics, cancer, sometimes aids etc...). He is probably the greatest medium alive, and has been performing hundreds of miracles every week, there is even the president of Peru that has sent his daughter to him for a cure. Actually it is not him that is operating but the entities he channels.

Anyway if you are interested make a google video search for john of god, I have uploaded a 15 min video. Notice that no anaesthetics or antiseptics are ever used in his operations. Another Brazilian psychic surgeon of the past used to operated with no anaesthetics or antiseptics with a rusty kitchen knife... how is this possible? well there is so much ectoplasm can do!

[Scott]

Thank you Bliss.  I am going to watch it.

[Scott]

Interesting!

I wonder if the scissors in the nose operation has to do with stimulating the body the way kechari does.  Haha, I would certainly never try it myself.  Watching the procedures is scary for me...if it works for some that is amazing.  And apparently it has!

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that he's in a trance while he's working.  His movements are very deliberate...but not human like.

Thanks again, Bliss.

[Jim and His Karma]

http://tinyurl.com/yhcgg2

and

http://www.randi.org/jr/021805a.html

[bliss_]

About the nose thing, yes I suspect it is stimulating the pineal.

I know about Randi Jim, but John of God doesn't seem to me to be a scam. I learned about John of God through a friend who had a heart problem and all doctors were saying he needed an operation. The operation was a bit risky (as any heart operation) and he was scared. He went to John Of God and the truth is that when he came back and made the exams his heart problem was gone. There are hundreds of accounts like this on the internet... they can't be all lying, how can someone suffering from aids go to a charlatan and stopd having aids?

But not everyone is always 100% cured... it depends on how long and spread in the body the condition is, etc... but almost everyone experiences an improvement after going there.

There have been some mediums like this in Brazil in the past, another I know of is Arigo (already Dead). He accepted doing an operation like this in front of Nasa scientists.

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:"There are hundreds of accounts like this on the internet... they can't be all lying

I'd love to believe it, too. But having been an Internet user since 1988, that line of thinking doesn't persuade me.

And "spiritually" if one has the ability to achieve healing miracles, I find it hard to believe that scraping eyeballs with knives and the rest of the shtick would be necessary. The fact that his bag of tricks so very closely matches the age-old tools used by charlatans in this niche seals the deal for me. If someone dramatically pulls a quarter out of my ear, I don't stop and wonder if this time it's, like, for real.

A skeptical mindset is, I think, helpful in general.  I don't grant benefit of doubt to stuff like this. Which is not to say we humans understand everything or that miracles can't occur. But I approach with plenty of skepticism.

[Scott]

Jim,

I approach with plenty of skepticism too...but too much skepticism can be irrational.  "The proof is in the pudding."  In other words - if people are healed somehow by this man, then people are healed somehow by this man.  There's no room for doubt when something works.  All there's room for is questioning how or why it works.

That being said, I don't think I'd go to John of God.  I don't trust him, and I'm at ease enough with dying or being sick (I know this life withers and ends eventually)...but I'm not going to say that he's a phoney just because I'm skeptical about what he does.  That's more closed minded than sensible.

[david_obsidian]

if people are healed somehow by this man, then people are healed somehow by this man.

Scott,  from a skeptical point of view,  there's the rub: strange though it is to say it,  it's very difficult to even find evidence that people are healed by this man!

Yes,  scientifically speaking,  even thousands of recovery-stories provide no evidence in themselves that he is a healing cause.  As scientists say,  the plural of anecdotes is not data, and they are right.

The reason is that spontaneous recovery happens all over the place all the time.  Many,  many illnesses have a high rate of spontaneous recovery.

Skepticism to me is all about making sure we are not being fooled, and not letting our desires occlude our finding out the truth.

So,  Tom goes to witch-doctor,  witch-doctor shakes rattle,  Tom is healed.  From a skeptical point-of-view,  we must ask,  can we be sure Tom was healed by the witch-doctor?  (There is a fallacy of logic called 'Post hoc ergo procter hoc',  which means making the assumption that something was caused by something else because it happened after it. )

We have no way of knowing in individual cases,  but fortunately there is a very precise statistical science for finding out the answer when there is a large enough pool of cases.  And here enters the scientific 'controlled statistical experiment'.

Unfortunately,  in the context of the controlled statistical experiment, the failure rate of modalities such as these is 100% (it's true I haven't defined 'modalities such as these').  We have to ask ourselves,  why is this happening?  Why do they seem to show up as working when we are looking without scientific sophistication, and then stop showing up as working when we are looking with scientific sophistication?  What's up with that?

[Scott]

David,

quote:it's very difficult to even find evidence that people are healed by this man!

I'm unsure of this as I just watched his documentary yesterday and haven't studied his case.  Yet even on the comments section below the video, someone mentioned their friend having a heart condition that was completely healed as a result of going to him.  Was it a lie?  Maybe...but I have a hard time believing that so many people are making up stories.  Maybe that is the case though.

The ideal thing that could be done is have a group of scientists monitor the people that go to John of God and record the results in the long term for each person.  That would be very hard work keeping track of everyone...but it would be the best way to know if there were actually any healings.  Maybe they could get checked up by an impartial team of certified physicians before and after.  Of course it's not going to happen, seeing as how health care is about money and not about miracles...but that sort of system would need to be in place before really saying anything about this guy.

quote:Yes, scientifically speaking, even thousands of recovery-stories provide no evidence in themselves that he is a healing cause. As scientists say, the plural of anecdotes is not data, and they are right.

That's not what I was saying.  I was saying that thousands of recovery stories DO provide evidence that he's a healing cause.  Not proof...but strong evidence.

When the statistics for people with a condition that have recovered are higher after seeing a healer, versus not seeing a healer...that is strong evidence that the healer is playing a role in recovery.

quote:The reason is that spontaneous recovery happens all over the place all the time. Many, many illnesses have a high rate of spontaneous recovery.

That can be true.  But when people mostly recover after going to see this man, it can't be said to simply be spontaneous recovery.

By the way - there's not really such a thing as a spontaneous recovery.  There's always a reason and a cause.

quote:Skepticism to me is all about making sure we are not being fooled, and not letting our desires occlude our finding out the truth.

I agree with you here.

I hope you don't think I desire to believe in this man's story.  I'm pretty much unmoved by it.  I don't have any use in believing it.  If you knew me in person you'd know I'm not the type to care about this sort of thing.

My point is just that in being too skeptical, we're fooling only ourselves.  My point is not to say this man is a healer, hands down.  I'm only saying that it seems likely, seeing as how it's working for some people.  To discredit him simply because of the way his organization is run, or the fact that he does strange things like scraping eyes and putting scissors in noses, is dishonest.

quote:So, John goes to witch-doctor, witch-doctor shakes rattle, John is healed. From a skeptical point-of-view, we must ask, can we be sure John was healed by the witch-doctor?

I agree with that...but when Bill, Ted, and Bob also go to the same witch doctor and are healed...and Buck, Chuck and Bertha don't go and are still suffering from their diseases...then the evidence tends to show that the witch doctor is playing a big role in the healing.

Are these the same statistics for John of God?  No, it isn't 100%...but there seem to be a lot of positive testimonies.  But like I said, without a team in place to scientifically measure the success rate it's hard to know the truth.

quote:We have no way of knowing in individual cases, but fortunately there is a very precise statistical science for finding out the answer when there is a large enough pool of cases. And here enters the scientific 'controlled statistical experiment'.

Unfortunately, in the context of the controlled statistical experiment, the failure rate of modalities such as these is 100% (it's true I haven't defined 'modalities such as these'). We have to ask ourselves, why is this happening? Why do they seem to show up as working when we are looking without scientific sophistication, and then stop showing up as working when we are looking with scientific sophistication? What's up with that?

Luckily, I tend not to believe in modalities "such as these".  But I don't discredit them the minute a new one pops up.  I think they ALL must be put to this test, and be shown to fail.  Until this John of God is put to the test, I won't say he's a phoney.  He is innocent until proven guilty.  Lumping him into the category as all of the fake healers who have failed the test is dishonest and unscientific.

Skepticism should about keeping an open mind.  Not too open...just open enough for the truth.  Not too closed either, because then we may shut out the truth.

If we say that John of God is a fake, we are being too closed minded.  Same thing if we say he's the real deal.

[david_obsidian]

mentioned their friend having a heart condition that was completely healed as a result of going to him. Was it a lie?

I'm not at all saying that these people are lying.  Only that their recovery could be spontaneous.

By the way - there's not really such a thing as a spontaneous recovery. There's always a reason and a cause.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding the meaning of the term 'spontaneous';  it doesn't mean that the recovery doesn't have a reason or cause, rather,  that no external cause was applied.

I agree with that...but when Bill, Ted, and Bob also go to the same witch doctor and are healed...and Buck, Chuck and Bertha don't go and are still suffering from their diseases...then the evidence tends to show that the witch doctor is playing a big role in the healing.

Actually no,  not yet.  Not if 10 other Bills,  Teds and Bobs also went to the witch-doctor and were not healed;  and ten other Buck,  Chuck and Bertha's did not go and were healed.....

Luckily, I tend not to believe in modalities "such as these". But I don't discredit them the minute a new one pops up. I think they ALL must be put to this test, and be shown to fail. Until this John of God is put to the test, I won't say he's a phoney. He is innocent until proven guilty.

There's a certain amount of justification in what you are saying, insofar as perhaps nothing new should be dismissed out of hand,  but I don't think it is so simple.  Psychic surgeons have been pulling fake body parts out of people for decades,  and all run away when the illusionist-scientist combo shows up to look at it,  despite, among other things,  the million-dollar reward if they prove themselves,  and instant and total credibility,  something they are certainly looking for.

The guy who shows up asking you for the $10 dollars which he desparately needs to fill his gas tank/get his bus ticket isn't innocent until he is proven guilty,  and the psychic surgeon claimant isn't either.

Of course it's not going to happen, seeing as how health care is about money and not about miracles...

A word or two in defense of modern medical science;  it's superb, but not perfect,  and has produced great improvements in human health and happiness.  That doesn't mean that people are grateful for it of course.  Unlike as is the case for 'alternative' medicine, established medical science does have to prove itself.  I wouldn't say that it is 'all about money', however,  paradoxically, the focus on money may actually improve the service in a number of ways. One is that Medical Insurance companies tend to insist on only paying for procedures which have a good proven rate of success.  This is probably a good thing for society.

[Scott]

David,

quote:There's a certain amount of justification in what you are saying, insofar as perhaps nothing new should be dismissed out of hand, but I don't think it is so simple. Psychic surgeons have been pulling fake body parts out of people for decades, and all run away when the illusionist-scientist combo shows up to look at it, despite, among other things, the million-dollar reward if they prove themselves, and instant and total credibility, something they are certainly looking for.

Has the man in question, John of God, ran away from the scientific community?  In the documentary I watched scientists/doctor visited his place and had been looking at what he was doing for a while.  I didn't see him or the volunteers working there hiding from analysis and investigation.  It seemed more like they allowed it to happen.  They actually allowed everything to be videotaped, which is unlike a lot of healers.  So I don't see how the guy we're talking about can be lumped into that category just yet.

Also, is it true that ALL psychic surgeons/healers are certainly looking for a million-dollar reward and total credibility?  Could it be possible that some simply want to help others?  I think so.  I do have hope that some people in the world are more compassionate than selfish...even if it couldn't be said of myself (I would certainly like getting a million dollars and a lot of fame).

quote:The guy who shows up asking you for the $10 dollars which he desparately needs to fill his gas tank/get his bus ticket isn't innocent until he is proven guilty, and the psychic surgeon claimant isn't either.

I didn't really understand what you were saying here, David...probably something on my end.  I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch.  It made me think of this though:

Homeless people that beg for money on the street are generally thought to be drug addicts.  Sometimes they say they need some food...but a lot of them tend to just go buy crack or booze with the money.  So should these people always be treated as honest?  Should they be treated as if they're actually going to buy themselves a meal?  Or should they be lumped into the category of drug addicts?

It may be true that 99% of them are simply begging for crack money...but what about that 1% who is actually starving?  It'd be a shame for everyone to pass those ones by just because everyone thought they'd just go buy drugs with the money.

In a similar sense, it'd be a shame for everyone to discredit actual healers just because there are so many fakes.

quote:A word or two in defense of modern medical science; it's superb, but not perfect, and has produced great improvements in human health and happiness. That doesn't mean that people are grateful for it of course. Unlike as is the case for 'alternative' medicine, established medical science does have to prove itself. I wouldn't say that it is 'all about money', however, paradoxically, the focus on money may actually improve the service in a number of ways. One is that Medical Insurance companies tend to insist on only paying for procedures which have a good proven rate of success. This is probably a good thing for society.

True!  I'm not the type to hate on western/modern medicine (unless it comes to chemotherapy).  I'm going to school in a health care profession actually - athletic training.  I was only saying that it's unlikely they'd invest in something which won't return a profit...such as studying a healer.  I guess the best thing to say about this is: no institution is perfect.  They all have their positives and negatives.

I think we already agree on the basic idea here, David.  The idea that we don't yet know if John of God is for real.  It's just that we're both playing our sides of the argument...which of course can never end if both players are any good.  I'm saying the cup is half empty and you're saying the cup is half full...or vice versa.  The point is that the cup is filled halfway.

Anyway, I'm alright at debate, and you're superb, so I will tap out now.

Unless this is a tag team match.  In that case, someone slap my hand!!!

[david_obsidian]

Has the man in question, John of God, ran away from the scientific community? In the documentary I watched scientists/doctor visited his place and had been looking at what he was doing for a while.

Fair enough.  I did lump him in with other "psychic surgeons" who have a trick of pulling presumed 'tissue' out of people's bodies without making an incision.  And,  yes,  I did dismiss him out of hand,  just based on the term,  "psychic surgeon". Anyway,  all told,  for reasons which Randi goes into in detail,  and similarly to what Jim said,  I don't buy it.

Homeless people that beg for money on the street are generally thought to be drug addicts. Sometimes they say they need some food...but a lot of them tend to just go buy crack or booze with the money. So should these people always be treated as honest?

There are some specific scams,  like the gas-money scam and the bus-ticket scams.  Unfortunately if someone comes to you looking for money for these reasons,  the chances are probably greater than 99% that they are scamming you.  The people in thes scams don't generally even pretend to be poor,  often dress nicely,  just caught without money,  wallet stolen,  ATM card not working, yada yada yada.  This isn't to say that some time anyone,  including either of us,  could not be caught in such a real situation.  In fact,  the scammers are trading off that fact. What I mean to say is that we can't afford to treat such a person as innocent until proven guilty.  That's all.  At least not in the sense of handing over our money.

Thanks.

-D

[Scott]

Thank you too, David.  I enjoy any discussion with you.

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by Scott
I'm not going to say that he's a phoney just because I'm skeptical about what he does.  

Agreed. Hey, I'm not sure of ANYTHING. But I am skeptical of just about everything. And my skepticism has saved my skin multiple times!

[aypmod3]

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