Author Topic: When the fire is too hot...  (Read 7124 times)

Holy

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2007, 01:18:01 AM »
Kadak, after this thread, I bought "Mahamudra-Tantra" and "clear light of bliss", both from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the information given are crazy. I never thought, that there is a book, which gives clear information about the very subtle processes until samadhi which relates to the clear light of bliss state. And the book goes even further, delivering the next four steps until you are permanently enlightened where any need for meditating, learning etc. falls apart. Its also very interesting, that he clearly says, when your body becomes immortal. The most amazing part, was that, where he talks about those thousand students, who followed the Mahamudra way and reached the endstate(of that system) beyond the first samadhistates within 3 years. All!

The information given fit perfectly to the whole picture, but are still not fully complete. C.W. Leadbeater from the white brotherhood gave some more information about the evolutionary development, but he does not give details about the practical part and says, that a guru should provide you with them. His initiator was Kuthumi and Maitreya, who you can find in the overall tibetan/buddha way.

But its hard to unite ayp with mahamudra tantra, as the meditational approach is very different. AYP is much easier, but perhaps not that effective, because visualizing changes with seeing after many months, perhaps years and then your overall technique becomes precise enough to make it really efficient and strong. Within the mahamudra system, you start right from the beginning with details within the central channel, the nadis, the chakras and with meditation over specific mindsets until you transcend them. It expands the "practice" time to the whole night, where you go on with your meditation. But it seems to be hard and complex for the beginner and binds more to a regilious way, where Buddha plays a big role.

But all in all, you come to the same experience of samadhi/clear light of bliss.

To clear some word differences: Those 5 winds are the 5 pranas: prana, apana, samana etc. The drops are red and white, relating to the blood and the sperm from the very subtle to the very physical aspect. The channels are the same as nadis and the knots in the chakras are the same too.

I did not want to say, that one is better than the other. More, that the overall picture with all its details is still missing. And its much more a big science, which will be known like biology, physics and co in the future and even taught in schools. Until that, we go the way we want, trusting on the experiences of realized ones and one day having our own revelations and realizations too.

When did you start with mahamudra tantra, kadak? Do you practice under the guidance of a guru or with the instructions of the book? If done correctly and steadily, it seems to be a fast way like kriya yoga, but also a harder and more complex one.

kadak

  • Posts: 79
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2007, 11:43:21 AM »
Hi Holy,
in my opinion, this book and AYP complete each other. From my understanding, AYP uses more of mudras, bandhas and detailed techniques, when mahamudra relies much on vase breathing (kumbakha). In tummo meditation, the core is vase breathing and accute concentration. AYP seems easier, and can help where concentration fails. I have spoken with several friends, everybody find it very difficult to concentrate during hours and hours on a tiny point which is supposed to be a "gate" of the central channel. There, I have found that AYP techniques can help, and I am beginning to use them. Because bliss opens the central channel, and AYP techniques are effective for bliss.
I started with tummo since 13 months, practicing 3-5 hours a day. My results are not overwhelming since I started from scratch, but at least I've had results. Because of karma resulting from past lives, I had very tight channels, and no technique was effective before I tried this tummo thing (I practiced vipassa, mantras, meditation, during 10 years, with no result). That's why I can tell it is effective. But it is not true that someone can reach last stages within 3 years. All the tibetan lamas are practicing tumo and more advanced techniques, and apparently, few of them reach the 3rd stage (which is illusory body). It you read carefully, this stage is equivalent to the 10th bhumi of the sutras, which is very high.
I am practicing within a lineage, but not exactly under the guidance of any guru, because guru do not guide easily people. I understood one day that I had to do my way myself, so I took the initiations and teachings, and now I am doing my way, probably as Yogani did with indian system. No tibetan lama will explain the whole thing to you, unless you're a tulku or at least a monk. If you're one of those small western folks who come to the teachings, you'll have to figure it out by yourself. They probably think that if someone is not able to find it by himself, it will be harmful to give it to him, because these techniques are too powerful. They were designed for people living under the direct watch of a guru, so that he can help if necessary.  
By chance, there are people like Kelsang Gyatso who write useful books, and each new book reveals a different information, so, with much practice, and practicing friends, it is possible to make one's way. Many things I had to figure out by myself, I found in Yogani's lessons. The books give the mainlines, the practice and the benedictions of the lineage give what's missing. I'm rather confident, but it's likely I won't have enough time to go to the end of it. For example, Yogani's lesson seems to cover approximetely the tummo yoga, but don't seem to cover the further stages (clear light yoga), and that's normal. Who would understand ? How many people are conscious 24/24 ? I won't be before long and until know, I haven't met anbody who is, except tibetan masters of course.
(Yogani, I don't criticize your work, You're doing a great job and I'm grateful, I wish I could go with tibetan yoga as far as you did with indian yoga)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 12:15:20 PM by kadak »

Holy

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2007, 07:12:15 PM »
Most of the information of my post above come from the "Mahamudra Tantra" book. It gives an overall picture of the system, of people who reached this and that, of preperations to that path etc. Those thousands of people reached that illusory body state under the guidance of Je Tsongkhapa. Now I started to read the "clear light of bliss" book which seems to be the actual practice book. The one before explained the meditations just a little bit and focused more on the theory. The aim is to dissolve all the winds in the central channel and then go through those 8 signs until you reach samadhi/clear light of bliss. It's nice, that it goes even beyond that, but all in all, ayp is easier to integrate into every life. This way needs some more serious devotion to the path with much more bhakti and at best, if you are buddhist. Then Buddha fits perfectly into the meditations too. Otherwise, there can be a conflict with one's god-picture.

Christi

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2007, 10:23:07 PM »
Hi Kadak,
What a great thread, it's fantastic to see people discussing these more esoteric aspects of the path. Thanks for these contributions. Oh yea, and welcome to the forum [:)].

Hi Holy,
Thanks for your wonderful posts. I also do Buddhist practices, and use visualizations, and I have been interested in the extent to which visualizations can be usefully integrated with AYP practices.

 
quote:
This way needs some more serious devotion to the path with much more bhakti and at best, if you are buddhist. Then Buddha fits perfectly into the meditations too. Otherwise, there can be a conflict with one's god-picture.


I have never used the image of the Buddha as part of any visualization. If the visualization of an enlightened (perfected) being is required as part of a practice then I visualize Jesus Christ. I also do this if a visualization meditation requires the visualization of one's guru, as I don't have one. [;)] [:)]


Christi

kadak

  • Posts: 79
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2007, 06:52:04 AM »
Hi Holy,
dissolving the winds in the central channel doesn't require any buddhist visualisation. In every practice, there is the core of the practice, and other things wich are less necessary. You can devote your bhakti to god without needing a representation (then "god" will be your true nature) and meditate on the winds and channels, wich are not specifically buddhist... This channel are energetic facts, not imagination, and no fact is buddhist, or hinduist, or christian... For example Yogani's lesson keep just the facts, removing any folklore who could be related. This can be done with any yoga practice.
As for the everyday day practice, I am doing vase breathing all the day, there is no problem, and it doesn't involve any god picture !

Hi Holy,
what AYP calls sensation, tibetan yoga will call it visualization, but it is fundamentally the same. As I said above, channels and winds are facts. As for the deities, they can be useful to help finding the right sensations, and christian iconography is as good as any.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 06:56:28 AM by kadak »

Holy

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2007, 11:06:19 PM »
Sure,
I did not want to say, that it's just for buddhists, but there are many preparational meditations within that "mahamudra-tantra" path, where you first call the lineage of masters of that system and get their special blessing that you succeed easily and fast on that way. The importance of that is mentioned many times. Without these blessings, it seems to be harder to get quick results, but sure, this again is based on your belief. If you believe or devote to your god and practice the core parts, like that tummo meditation, it should give the same results. I tried one round of that meditation, just to get an understanding of the method and instantly felt the fire at the navel.

All in all, the aim is to melt the white drop of the crown and the red drop of the navel within the immortal drop of the heart. The same I heard from Krishna in his talks to Arjuna. Bringing apana and samana to the heart and then the prana of the heart gets free, somthing like that :) Then all the winds dissolve in the central channel, you go through the 8 signs and reach clear light of bliss/samadhi. Then meditating over emptiness seems to lead to the next step.

Waht I did not like, is, that  there is no routine within the system. In ayp, you know, sitting twice a day for deep meditation will bring you nice results. Within mahamudra, it seems that the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it. There is no guidance about when to do what or perhaps, this is delivered from a guru and within the book, you just find the techniques, one after the other, even that ones beyond samadhi.

Christi,
which ones do you practice besides ayp?

kadak

  • Posts: 79
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2007, 09:06:29 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by Holy I tried one round of that meditation, just to get an understanding of the method and instantly felt the fire at the navel.


Sure ! With your AYP training, it must be easy.

quote:

Waht I did not like, is, that  there is no routine within the system. In ayp, you know, sitting twice a day for deep meditation will bring you nice results. Within mahamudra, it seems that the more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.


The book gives different basic steps, but I attended a retreat where the steps where different. Anyway that's not so important, because it is your practice which decide what you will do. One day you concentrate more on the fire, another day you concentrate more on the dripping of the white drop, or on the winds in the central channels... As for the time, it is usually much demanding. For example, Chagdud Rinpoche said that he spent 6 months on it, in a closed retreat, when he was young. In Tibet, there are tumo retreats, each year during the winter, you're supposed to practice 8 hours a day during 114 days, and then you go on the roof where it is very very cold with wet clothes... Our Gueshe did it 2 times. The most amazing thing he said is that they put a big pot of water on the roof of the temple and that it musn't freeze. During this time, the students are in the temple, not on the roof. He says "Normally it is impossible that a pot of water wouldn't freeze in tibet if you left it out at night, but if you do good tumo, it won't freeze". Anyway, I'm far from it, so I won't go there, or I would die on the roof...

Christi

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    • Advanced Yoga Practices
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2007, 11:12:28 PM »
Hi Holy

 
quote:
Christi,
which ones do you practice besides ayp?


I do the four mindfullness practices: mindfulness of the breath, mindfullness of the body, mindfullness of the contents of the mind, and mindfullness of mindfullness (or awareness of awareness). I also practice Metta Bhavana (the creation of love) and a series of visualization practices from the Mahayana tradition. But as I said, I adjust the visualizations to make them more meaningful for me, as I grew up in a Judeo-Christian country (if you can really call the UK a Judeo-Christian country [;)]).

 
quote:
Sure,
I did not want to say, that it's just for buddhists, but there are many preparational meditations within that "mahamudra-tantra" path, where you first call the lineage of masters of that system and get their special blessing that you succeed easily and fast on that way. The importance of that is mentioned many times. Without these blessings, it seems to be harder to get quick results, but sure, this again is based on your belief. If you believe or devote to your god and practice the core parts, like that tummo meditation, it should give the same results.


I agree with you. It is my experience that with nearly all spiritual practices, if we do not feel comfortable with the parafanalia, and extras, then it is possible to work out what are the core tools being use and cut out the rest. The Buddha did this very successfully with the spiritual practices that were being taught during his time in India, and it is what Yogani is doing with Yoga.

 And again I agree, as long as we realize what the purpose of the initiation (invocation) was then I we could substitute other practices to serve the same purpose. In this case it would be connecting with our own sense of the divine, and asking for protection and guidance.

I haven't done any of the practices that you are discussing here, but would be very interested to try.

 
quote:
All in all, the aim is to melt the white drop of the crown and the red drop of the navel within the immortal drop of the heart. The same I heard from Krishna in his talks to Arjuna. Bringing apana and samana to the heart and then the prana of the heart gets free, somthing like that :)


Is this from the BagavadGita? I tried to look it up but couldn't find anything.

Christi

Holy

  • Posts: 674
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 10:58:32 PM »
Hi Christi,

it's possible that these words come from Patanjali and not from Krishna. I could not find the source, where I had read it, but I read it many many times. The first time I read it in Yogananda's autobiography where he explains the science of kriya yoga. But this again was a quotation from either Krishna, Babaji or Patanjali =P

Btw, interesting meditations, the "best" one of them seems to be: "awareness of awareness" :)

Kris

  • Posts: 18
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 02:32:38 AM »
quote:
interesting meditations, the "best" one of them seems to be: "awareness of awareness" :)


Hi Christi,
I second Holy's sentiment. I used 'breath' until I got through first Jhana. Thereafter my meditation has remained mainly "awareness of awareness", although awareness of body and external sounds has helped along the way.

I'd just like to say what a fantastic thread this is. Very informative.

Kris

KoHsuan

  • Posts: 5
When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2007, 02:58:23 PM »
Hi Kadak,
Reading your posts I  figured out that doing Six Yogas..
I am trying to practice by myself, no teacher, books only...

Unfortunately I couldn't find any place on the net, forum, group etc .. dedicated Naropa practices especially tummo and Internal Heat meditation..

Do you know any?

Psinomad

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 03:51:09 AM »
Very interesting topic. I am reading about Tummo practice as well. Just found this video in russian:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_zBNHGWMju0



PsiNomad
http://www.netvibes.com/psinomad

selfonlypath

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When the fire is too hot...
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 04:45:08 PM »
Yes, this video is very fascinating and I personally relate a lot with right tummo practionner because he starts the meditation via singing kargyraa.

As i shared on another thread, khoomei, kargyraa or sygyt which belong to overtone singing and throat singing (turco-mongol origin) can really help detox blocked channels in stomach area.

Albert