Experience with EFT

[Wolfgang]

Anybody here has experience with EFT
(Emotional Freedom Technique) ?

I had a look at their free manual ( https://www.emofree.com/downloadeftmanual.asp )
and I found their 'discovery statement' quite interesting
and quite in line with AYP-teachings:

"The cause of all negative emotions
is a disruption in the body's energy system"

L&L
Wolfgang

[Etherfish]

there were a couple answers when I asked in feb:
(http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=812&SearchTerms=emotional+freedom+technique)

[Wolfgang]

Thanks a lot.

Actually, I would phrase their discovery statement
a bit different:

Negative experiences -> caused negative emotions ->
which disrupted the body's energy system.

I think I will be studying this a bit.

L&L
Wolfgang

[Etherfish]

"Negative experiences -> caused negative emotions ->
which disrupted the body's energy system."

Yes I was a little bothered by the way it was stated also.
Of course you can always add a little more, and state that
negative emotions don't always disrupt the body's energy
system, but the disruption is caused by poor choices,
or misunderstandings.

[Doc]

Hello everyone:

I have used EFT for a number of years to date with great results, both alone and in conjunction with a variety of other Energy Healing Methods such as Reiki, Brahma Vidya, and Medical Chi-Kung, as well as with various forms of Energy Point Therapy (EPT) such as Acupuncture, Shiatsu, Do-In, Tsubo, and An-Ma.  I have found it to be very effective.  

I can verify, as they state on their website, that it oftentimes improves or eliminates physical and emotional symptoms in cases that didn't respond to anything else. I consider it a very valuable asset to my clinic practice.

Hari OM!

Doc

[Yoda]

There's a therapy similar to EFT that was mentioned in a recent magazine.  It is used the same way that EFT is but the pattern interupt is by moving the eyes right and left several times.  They've tested its effectiveness in one small study, and found that it does help many patients.  I forget what it is called.  I'll report more, if I can find the article.

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Yoda

There's a therapy similar to EFT that was mentioned in a recent magazine.  It is used the same way that EFT is but the pattern interupt is by moving the eyes right and left several times.  They've tested its effectiveness in one small study, and found that it does help many patients.  I forget what it is called.  I'll report more, if I can find the article.

Sounds like you're talking about EMDR ...?

Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing?

http://www.emdr.com/briefdes.htm

I've done this a couple of times, with a professional practitioner.

I had some fairly amazing results with it - I was nauseated to the point of vomiting, due to a horrible headache which I originally thought was due to sinus / allergies, but which seemed exacerbated by circumstantial stress (the impracticality of throttling my boss at the time -- in a conscious and unconditionally loving way, of course .... ).

(And since we're talking about therapeutic type stuff, I'll be clear -- the last sentence above is a complete joke; I was experiencing boss-related stress, but more due to emotional hurt over something I had overheard her say about me, than anger.)

The practitioner guided me through EMDR -- and I literally has a wastebasket in my lap, in which I had vomited a couple of times already, in the 10-15 mins. I had been in his office -- and I don't mean to "gross anyone out" - but I feel that the level of my nausea at the time is highly illustrative of the efficacy of EMDR, per the following:

During the EMDR (a period of a minute or so) - my headache and nausea were gone.

Not "better" --- gone.

As soon as the EMDR stopped -- they came back.

We did this 2-3 times, and the practitioner found it almost as curious as I did.

I felt about 50% better when I left his office, so that part was good - but the dynamic above was *very* intriguing.

I had actually forgotten about it, though -- so thanks for the reminder!

This was probably 7-8 months ago, right around the time I started becoming active in the forum -- and had been practicing AYP for a while (a year or so), on top of my several years of other practices.

Reason I mention this, is: "things yogic" were very present in my mind, when I did the EMDR.

And I realize that the stress-related disturbance described in this post may seem incongruous with what I've reported as some of the longer-term benefits I've gotten from AYP and yoga overall (much greater emotional equanimity, among other things) -- which it did to me, as well.

As I imagine we all know though, based on sub-conscious or semi-conscious psychological issues, certain events can blindside us, and be especially and unexpectedly "hard-hitting" -- which this circumstance was, for me.

I do feel that this circumstance, and related details which include the results of EMDR treatment, along with EMDR's potential tie-ins with yoga - are pertinent (potentially) information related to our shared goals in this forum (of helping each other enjoy optimal yogic practice - which includes all aspects of life) -- hence all the detail.

I hope it's helpful.



PLEASE NOTE:

PER THE INFO ABOVE, THE FOLLOWING STORY SEEMS PERTINENT ON SEVERAL LEVELS, BUT NOT ESSENTIAL, TO THIS POST --- THOUGH SOME PEOPLE (I'M GUESSING) MAY FIND THE RELATED INFO USEFUL.

HOWEVER, SINCE THIS POST IS LONG EVEN WITHOUT THE STORY - I'VE MARKED "START STORY" AND "END STORY" CLEARLY, SO THAT YOU CAN SKIP IT, IF YOU LIKE.

START STORY

The sense of betrayal I felt upon hearing my boss speak negatively about me, to someone else apparently unlocked some very deep-seated psychological "stuff" I had - which came rushing to the surface in the form of the headache and nausea. She and I were very close - though always completely professional in our conduct with each other, to be clear (any time one talks about being "close" with a co-worker or boss of the opposite gender, this type of clarification is usually a good idea, I've found).

Because we were close, and because I had understood her to like me and respect me (and still do, in general - her comment was indicative of stress that she was feeling at the time, I believe) -- hearing her say to someone else that I was effectively a "legend in my own mind", felt bad on several levels (it felt kind of similar to a girlfriend saying, "I love the way you kiss", and then overhearing her say to a friend, "He's a nice guy, but yuck - what a lousy kisser!")

My "mental legend-ness" was proven out, though -- I had told her that I could get the company's financial software to run a certain type of non-standard report, and one of the other executives had called her to ask where it was -- and she made the above-described comment, something like "Kirtanman said he could do it, but he couldn't - as I figured -- everyone's a super-hero in their own mind, but delivery is a different matter - as we see all too much of, around here ...!"

To round out the context: she (my former boss) had gotten me a couple of "special assignments" based on my talents, during my tenure at that company, which made a significant difference to the company - one of which saved the company a *lot* of money (hundreds of thousands of dollars -- an amount hugely disproportionate to the relatively small time investment on my part), and which showcased my capabilities to the executive she was speaking with on the phone, who was the COO (Chief Operating Officer) of the company.

So, it felt to me (at the time) that all of that positive stuff, and the presumed "good opinion" concerning me, held by both my boss, and the COO (her boss) was either A. an illusion, or B. likely to be erased by her comment (not necessarily true, but that's how it felt when I heard it -- "ego-filters" are amazing things ....).

So, that situation "brought up" all kinds of stuff related to loyalty (or lack thereof), having our worst fears of what people *really* think about us confirmed, economic security (since professional reputation can be tied to perceived and/or actual job performance), not being appreciated for one's demonstrated talents (the type of technical task I had said I could complete, is something I'm good at, and was known for being good at, at this company), and so on.

My former boss was also one of my primary "life resources" -- she largely determined all aspects of my professional success at that company (as my boss, she largely determined my compensation, the opportunities I had to grow professionally at that company, and so on), and -- she and I were close as personal / professional friends - and discussed, pretty much daily -- everything from family members with serious illnesses, to deep spiritual topics, and nearly anything else - so we had that kind of "bond" as well.

The task was taking longer than I thought (instead of an hour or so, it took closer to two -- to do something that no one else at the company could do at all, and which would have cost many thousands of dollars to have done by outside consultants) - and I had a personal appointment (to do EMDR, but hadn't told her that), so asked if I could finish the task when I returned.

My former boss stressed that it was *really* important (I hadn't realized that she had told the executive team that the report would be  *ready* within a couple of hours, based on my time estimate for creating the report-generating capability) - and that she would appreciate it if I could change the appointment (I couldn't; the EMDR therapist was only in my city one day a week, and often booked solid).

I knew I was close to finishing the task -- so I stayed to finish it (and was late to the appointment) - and she thought I had gone -- so made the comment she did to the COO, not realizing I was still within earshot.

About fifteen minutes later, I walked into her office and dropped the report on her desk. You can imagine the look on her face when she realized I was still there, and that I had likely heard what she said (she always "positioned" herself as someone who thought very highly of me, and was very loyal to me, etc.)

To her credit, she was very appreciative of the result, and that I had stayed to complete the task (in fact, her gratitude was expressed unusually often, over the next couple of days .... ).

I felt good about being "right" and showing what I could do (yes - pure ego -- the whole situation described in this story is, obviously!) - but had felt the headache and nausea start after hearing her comment - and noticed them getting progressively worse.

END STORY

The point isn't to give you every possible detail about the related "story" (possible appearances to the contrary ...) -- but to illustrate why the comment was hard-hitting to me, emotionally (if the comment had been made by a boss I didn't care for or about, if the boss made comments like this all the time, if the comment had been about a different topic, or to a different person, etc. -- all of those things would likely have caused it to have less impact.)

I had similar "bad sinus headaches" around that time - but always connected directly with stress at work. Because work was *always* stressful, I didn't make the connection between a significant "spike" in the stress, and the related headaches - so I thought the headaches were sinus-related, which was a symptom of seasonal allergies.

In retrospect (especially per the EMDR results) - I think the headaches were a direct stress reaction, based on stresses that were tied to some very deep-seated psychological issues, of which I was pretty much entirely unaware.

I don't know this for sure, of course - but based on various aspects of the situation (how close I was with my former boss, the disproportionately strong sense of betrayal I felt -- it's pretty hard for me to feel betrayal - or think in those terms - at all -- let alone in relation to a work situation) -- and the severity of my symptoms - and the results of the EMDR -- it's an "educated guess".

At first, I didn't connect the headache and nausea with stress; stress made the headache worse, but that's fairly standard.

However, the EMDR highlighted the likelihood that the entire physical disturbance was related to stress-related changes in my system - which were likely a combination of mental and emotional reaction, and related neuro-biological processes; <--- it doesn't take much to create neuro-biological processes via mental and emotional activity -- just engage in a rich sexual fantasy, or spend some time dwelling on your deepest fear, to verify this for yourself.

Around that time, I had really felt the tangible power of sambhavi (raised eyes, as taught in the AYP lessons) - and it was becoming clear to me that the eyes can be a major key (seemingly equivalent to the tongue) to "yogic neuro-biology" and our yogic evolution, once we learn how to use them as such - especially if we have prepared our physical and subtle energetic channels with yoga practice.

POTENTIALLY VERY IMPORTANT:

In my opinion, one of the great keys which is likely to open yoga to the entire world (as opposed to yoga remaining in its "niche" as an alternative health practice or spiritual practice) is to be able to replicably demonstrate that human beings can participate in their own "neuro-spiritual" evolution by engaging in yogic practices, in ways that the scientific / medical communities will accept.

Also, in my opinion, we are right on the cusp of being able to do this, in some very major ways. That "door" is still closed with respect to quite a few aspects of yoga, due to the inability of current technology to measure directly related changes in the body -- but it is opening in others, largely in connection with new technologies related to brain imaging and measurement (fMRI, PET scans, etc.) - where, in effective real-time, it can be shown that the patient's "activity x" (i.e. engaging in EMDR, and/or sambhavi) replicably yields "result y".

My point?

(Apologies to those of you who participate in the "bet he doesn't have a point or will never get to it in this post and/or my lifetime" pools ... )

My point is (per the tons of info available via Google) that EMDR is clearly very popular, and growing in popularity (and with good reason; independent studies have verified its efficacy for some very serious maladies - including major depression and PTSD) ---- and it (EMDR) may therefore offer an opportunity for AYP (Yogani? Me? Others? Whoever makes sense, I figure) to begin a dialog with the EMDR community - essentially saying: "If you're excited about what EMDR can do, and what its scientific foundations tell us about neurobiology, check this out ....!"

EVEN MORE IMPORTANT POINT

In my (very strongly held) opinion, the only reason that the entire neuroscientific and medical communities aren't beating down the AYP door, is that they don't understand the gold mine of relatively near-term benefits which yoga (specifically AYP per its clarity, and non-dogmatic, culturally independent nature) holds for all areas of human health (specifically psychiatry and brain-related neuro-biology, in this case).

Because they aren't aware of yoga's benefits, or because they discount some of yoga's claims as non-scientific --- we need areas of commonality with which to begin dialog.

It seems fairly clear to me (especially based on my fairly dramatic EMDR experience, along with my attendant results from sambhavi and related practices) that EMDR-related dialog may be a good place to start.

Comments?

Peace & Namaste,

Kirtanman

PS - I love the real-time unfolding of things like this; this post wasn't planned -- I just saw the reference to EMDR -- and was going to help out by saying, "Oh, I think you're referring to EMDR ...." -- and then I remembered the other stuff cited above (including that I was going to mention these thoughts several months ago -- and as I said, forgot about it entirely -- and I am very grateful for the reminder, per my own interest and my opinion that it may be an important "conversation-starter" for AYP's growth.)

[riptiz]

Hi Kirtanman,
The problem with the scientific research and evidence is that the results cannot be explained in terms that are clear even by the scientists.Earlier this evening I was talking to a scientist from India who is researching the Divine Sound and it's effects.He told me the results are there but it is proving difficult for him to explain them as we are in the realms of Quantum physics and he said he wished he could have sent all the yogis from ages past to school to study Quantum physics so they could have explained it in scientfific terms rather than  the scriptures.Check him out at http://prabhu.britto.googlepages.com/
Incidentally my teacher is on his site under the heading 'my candle in the wind'
L&L
Dave

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by riptiz

Hi Kirtanman,
The problem with the scientific research and evidence is that the results cannot be explained in terms that are clear even by the scientists.Earlier this evening I was talking to a scientist from India who is researching the Divine Sound and it's effects.He told me the results are there but it is proving difficult for him to explain them as we are in the realms of Quantum physics and he said he wished he could have sent all the yogis from ages past to school to study Quantum physics so they could have explained it in scientfific terms rather than  the scriptures.Check him out at http://prabhu.britto.googlepages.com/
Incidentally my teacher is on his site under the heading 'my candle in the wind'
L&L
Dave

Hi Dave,

I agree with you, completely. Even within so-called scientific disciplines themselves, it gets kind of wonky (to use an ancient, esoteric technical term that I just made up ... ).

Seriously, though - I printed out and read all the info available via the EMDR link I posted originally. Good info, but much of it essentially says, "We know by experience that this process works, though we really can't say why it works -- although repeated tests have verified that it works -- although those tests admittedly use subjective measurement criteria."

We could essentially do the same type of thing with AYP (given a few years -- the scientific community tends to like test results that took place over a few years, as long as they were recent enough to be considered modern -- late 80s to now-ish seems to be a good range, though starting as late as late 90s seems to be permissible ... ).

Personally, I've experienced the power of EMDR -- and know of at least a couple of mainstream health industry people who feel it is a useful and credible process.

However, it was invented by a woman who personally experienced it, and who has a fairly "loose" doctorate (apparently the school who provided her degree is somewhat absent, and/or not offering accredited degrees any longer, and/or was abducted by aliens -- i.e. it wasn't exactly Oxford or Stanford, and you or I could have an equivalent Doctorate, given ten minutes, a major credit card, and access to Google).

It was then backed up by several "independent" and "published" studies, which basically say "it's as good as everything else - though who knows why" ("further research is indicated").

Not a bad thing -- but it just goes to show: if you know how to play the "scientific method" game, even fairly loose information can be shown to be scientific -- provided that it actually works, replicably - of course.

EMDR does this - and the theory is that the "essence" of it has to do with pattern-interrupt (breaking the stream of habitual thought patterns - which meditation has been doing for several thousand years) by creating a "split" between the hemispheres of the brain (one side focused on the motion of the eyes, the other side focused on recall of an unpleasant situation).

That may well be true -- but it seems to me (per yoga experience) - that EMDR researchers are looking heavily at the psychiatric component, and lightly at the neurobiological and/or neurochemical components.

As the old saying goes, "When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

When you're a psychiatrist or psychologist, everything can look psychological, instead of neurological.

Obviously, as a non-medical industry professional, I could be in error myself - my personal theory is based on the experiences I have had in samadhi, or other "altered" states which have been self-induced by various yogic practices, including sambhavi (eyes) and kechari (tongue) - which somewhat replicate (and in some ways, improve upon) the states induced by EMDR.

And actually, this almost reinforces my original assertion concerning the potential for cross-disciplinary dialogue between the yogic and EMDR communities -- because EMDR's validation is based on "lightly objective" (repeatable, but difficult to tangibly measure in the same way that a cardiac or excercise test can be measured) set of standards - in (seemingly) the same way that yoga could be measured.

The challenge with yoga is that most practitioners have to actively practice for a period of several months at bare minimum, and usually anywhere from maybe two to five years, before their systems are able to demonstrate the benefits of practices such as sambhavi and kechari.

(If these time frames seem "way off" to anyone, please say so - thanks!)

So, unlike EMDR, where a highly unwell person (someone with a major case of PTSD, for instance) can feel better in a session or two -- yogic benefits require consistent, disciplined effort of the part of the "patient" before its amazingly powerful benefits can be demonstrated.

I don't think this is a "deal-breaker" though, even as short-term as our society tends to be, in its focus --- it's just a matter of showing the scientific community that there is a LOT of evidence with which to formulate working hypotheses ("sambhavi and kechari can alleviate neurological and psychological pathologies", "vocally generated sound vibrations can alleviate various pathologies", etc. <-- and these are not formally stated hypotheses; candidly, I'd have to recall high school science, and/or Google for a few minutes, to remember how to do that -- it ain't hard, though - it just has some basic parameters).

As far as your friend's comment about yogis and quantum physics - yes, that would be nice (to be able to do) - but ultimately, it highlights that we're dealing with a matter of languaging.

It's like a native English speaker and a native Spanish speaker are looking at a relatively small quadrupedal mammal who is quite sure you were born to provide it would food and attention exactly as it may require -- and the English speaker says, "It's a cat!" and the Spanish speaker says, "Es un gato!"

The cat chimes with with "Rowr / Purr / (Head Bump to leg) / (Body rub against leg)".

The quantum physicist says, "It's a specific formation of condensed emptiness."

The yogic master says, "It's an evolute of prakriti, a projected combination of the three gunas!"

And none of the above are wrong.

Provided the cat is fed quickly, of course.




Seriously, though -- when the quantum physicist says "condensed emptiness" (this is how Einstein described matter, to paraphrase what he said - I don't remember the exact quote - he essentially said, "The Universe is emptiness; matter is just condensed emptiness.") - and the yogi says, "evolutes of prakriti" ---- it's the same as an English speaker saying, "Cat" and a Spanish speaker saying, "Gato" -- they're using different words for the same thing, is all.

And it's very important (I feel) to remember that all language is metaphor - describing subjective views of temporary oscillations of nothingness.

"Trying to describe reality with words is like trying to render a beautiful tropical waterfall using only bricks and rusty beer cans." -- Kirtanman

Ultimately, though -- when sincere (non-dogmatic) scientists in the medical and physics communities open their minds to the scientific realities of yoga -- yoga will spread like wildfire.

I agree that it's a challenge - but I also believe that day may be closer than we think -- especially if we all watch and act on opportunities to help it happen.



Peace & Namaste,

Kirtanman

[Yoda]

EMDR... that's it.  EMDR tested more effective than several other modalities but not as effective as talk therapy.  The article and study was angling to say that any form of distraction in the middle of a negative emotion is good stuff... breaks the pattern possibly.  But they speculated that talk therapy was better was that the pattern interupt offered by a therapist might be superior in some way.  EFT wasn't tested.

I think all this fits in with Byron Katie type rational emotive training, jnana yoga, etc.

Having said that, I'm sure the physiology of eye motion or tapping meridians, etc is useful too.

I'd take any studies done with a big grain of salt... our understanding of these things is crude at best.  

A friend of mine was just telling me that at age 5 he had serious and chronic sinus pain.  His father was an MD and sent him to all the best specialists available, etc.  Finally one day my friend just got tired of it and decided that he was just going to heal and within  hours it was gone never to return.

[riptiz]

Hi Kirtanman,
Great post.Regardless of what other therapies I have experienced they all become redundant as I move further along this path since meditation is IMHO the ultimate in self healing.
L&L
Dave