why "love" relationships anyway?

[YogaIsLife]

Hi,

I am a bit relunctant to ask this types of questions in an open forum for many reasons. First I think they sound stupid, then I think they are "mind worries" and also because they are quite personal. But maybe that is me, I can't help but be brutally honest, at least to myself. Until now I was ok with that feature of myself because I was alone, but when you are in a "love relationship" with someone that changes. Maybe you have to be careful...

I honestly don't even know exactly how to express my doubts but I'll try.

What do you think of "love relationships"? What is "love" in this case? What is to be "in love" with someone? Is it real? Will it go away? Everybody knows the cases of love that turn into hate, etc. If possible please tell me from your honest personal experience. No need to console me in any way with romanticised images of love etc. The real thing please.

The feeling of being in love is inspiring but is it not an illusion? Why care for it at all then? Can we really love someone else? Why not just be honest with ourselves and the world and not pretend we are "in love" with someone else? Is it not all just for the purpose of procriation? (yes, I know I sound really brutal here sorry for all the lovers out there!)

My mind is confused. I found a certain peace within myself in the past months but now there is some disturbance in my life because I am intimate with another human being. I need to share things, I need to explain things about my feelings/thougths that even I can't explain or understand! I was used to just let them be and they would be dissolved in silence eventually. Maybe it's responsibility? We become also responsibile for the other person's happiness? If we don't why do people get together? For the feeling of intimacy? For fear?

I was pretty ok alone and able to deal with my mind/emotions to a comfortable degree. The only "person" suffering was me and I could handle it. Now there are two. And sometimes feelings arise, waves in the ocean. Triggers. I wonder if this is meant to be (to further evolution) or if it would be better to live a simpler life "alone" and, as such, don't have to share hurt with anybody else??

Another way of putting it: why do saints and enlightened people get married? If they were not enlightened before, does it change their relationship with their spouses? How? Would they want to go away and live alone in the woods? It sounds stupid but sometimes I feel my own quest for truth is pretty insensitive to other peoples' feelings. It seems it just wants to find happiness, while doing the less damage to those around by doing it on my own. No victims. No needing to explain. No casualities.

In yet another way: if maya is illusion and the only thing true is the ONE BEING, why bother with anything else really? It sounds cold-hearted I know. Is life a play where we act and put on these roles? I want the real thing, not any roles...Or should I just relax into it and take what comes...There seems to be so many attachments, conflicts, ideas, preconceptions, etc. that it becomes difficult to be "natural". And then I am worried that when (if) I do become "unconditioned" I really will not care for anything else and see the illusion as it is and then that "special someone" becomes less special...that makes me sad in a way and potentially will the other...

Does truth hurt?

What do you think?

[tadeas]

Hi

I think such a relationship is a great opportunity. The fact that you've already decided to enter it means that a part of you wants to be in it. So it's best to use this tendency to your advantage

What will come out of such a relationship is only up to you and your partner. What are you aiming for? ... Whatever that turns out to be, there's always the potential to see and know yourself better through the other. You can work on opening up to each other. You can see where there is fear, contractions and barriers in your relationship. What prevents you from being totally open (=loving) towards each other. How you condition yourself, how you condition giving love to each other. You can both enjoy preorgasmic sex and "strenghten" the relationship that way. Notice the feeling and openness which is there when you're intimate with each other. That's how it can look like with everyone and all the time, if only we'd trash our barriers and see what our nature is, who we are.

If you're willing, I'd say it's an opportunity to go really deep. I think it's very easy to live "alone" and consider the "outer world" and "relationships" an ilussion. It can be a stage in one's development, but the potential is much greater. The openness and silence that comes up with practices wants to be integrated into everything, including every relationship and emotion. While you're explaining your emotions and thoughts, be totally honest and direct with yourself and the other person. And even as you're explaining your emotions and thoughts, let go of them. Expressing or sharing something is not a barrier to letting go of it at the same moment.

See where you identify in the relationship. See what your personal agenda is. That's where problems and tension arise. What do you want from the person, if anything? What is the barrier to completely merging in the deepest knowing of each other?
Maybe in practice you're a long way from there. So start where you both are

Yogani pretty much sums it up: "The best way to find true union with another person is by finding union in ourselves. Then there is no personal agenda to get in the way."

As you meditate and inner silence comes up and starts merging with energy, with all that you see, the perspective in relationships changes also. They're themselves also stilness in action -  THAT playing with itself. There is no problem with roles, or with emotions, thoughts, or romantic infatuation. There's no "correct" way to live, no rules at all, ultimately. Just perceived relationships between events, causes and effects. So it is all up to you. If you can be where you are just now, with all confusion and conflicts, just as you are now, then that is wise Anyway, whatever you do, then that is in itself natural for you can't really get away from that. So allow whatever happens to happen.

I can assure you that as barriers fall and you're more open, all the problems will just fall apart, even though the world, you and interaction remains Truth is freedom and it may hurt, but that will pass as everything does

So take care and love your partner, right?

[YogaIsLife]

Hi Tadeas

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Before going into your post and caring response I just wanted to say that just the fact that I put all my confusing thoughts and emotions "out there" in the forum was helpful. Seems a bit like magic - once I am not afraid to expose my innermost feelings (even if very confusing and "negative") it seems they lose most of their "frightening" appeal. What about that? If I don't put the question out, honestly, it seems it grows and tehre is no answer. Once the question is out, the answer is there. Rather, the qesution disapears Magical.

You say very interesting things Tadeas.

I too see it as a great opportunity, and you are right that there is a part of me that wants to be in it and work in it, because it can see it is beneficial and it will bear fruits, if worked on and there is the will to go deeper and of honesty and oppeness. There is, but it does not mean it is easy It is like walking in a misty fog but believing there is sunshine ahead, even if you don't see it

The problem is mainly me, my doubts, my fears, my sometimes negative taint of things. Don't know exactly why (past karma?). I do want to feel deep love for the other person but my mind/emotions get on the way and sometimes the fears/emotions are quite strong. They had to come out eventually I guess.

You say:

 

quote:While you're explaining your emotions and thoughts, be totally honest and direct with yourself and the other person. And even as you're explaining your emotions and thoughts, let go of them. Expressing or sharing something is not a barrier to letting go of it at the same moment.

This is teh part I have the most problem with. To honestly and accurately express my emotions/thougths without hurting the other. Requires great wisdom. On one hand only being honest can make it work, on the other hand what do I really feel? Can I express all my innermost doubts (some negative) to her? Only that can work, but you have to take care as well. That;s what I mean that I could deal with it myself but when it involves soemone else...

And I wonder what you mean with "let go" exactly? It's not something I can do voluntarily, is it? My feeling is that things drop when they are expressed. I.e., once talked or expressed in some other way (sung, cried, etc.) then they seem to fall apart. Is there any other way? This has been the most efficient method I have found so far to release. Meditation seems to help as well although I am not so conscious of what dropped and so the realisation can be less I guess.

Again tadeas thanks for the encouraging words. I believe you my friend! But it can be hard to see when all this "little monsters" inside seem to come alive due to interaction. Well, I think this is a mystery as old as the ages any way...that does not make it less relevant for me though

 

quote:So take care and love your partner, right?

I am doing my best, believe me. That is why I am sharing

[tadeas]

By letting go I meant primarily "dissolve in stillness", if you can do that. It's discriminating, seeing what is true (eternal) and what is not (forever changing). It's not identifying with what you're letting go off.

You wrote:

quote:
I was used to just let them be and they would be dissolved in silence eventually.

Like that

I think the willingness that you have to open up is enough to carry you through this
So enjoy the journey

[YogaIsLife]

Again, tahkms for the encouragement. I hope so. I hope the willingness is enough. But it is funny how much faith is a part of this - to believe there is a way even if one sees none.

Like the "dissolving in silence". I can understand what you say but I cannot still see it. I cannot do it. Will keep on searching for that, for the discrimination of what is eternal and what is transitory. If one can do that one is free! I do wish I could understand that..

[Goddessinside]

Hi YIL,

Hope you will fall in love with this book:
Love, Freedom, Aloneness: The Koan of Relationships by Osho.

Aloneness is our true nature...

[YogaIsLife]

Hi Goddess Inside

Thanks for the wonderful tip.

I must admit I cringed a bit when I saw it was by Osho because I am quite aware of his views on ordinary love relationships. But I do know he is rigth in the difference of the so-called "ordinary love" and true unbounded love. I know the difference but most of the time my mind doesn't But I do know I only want the true love in my life.

So, deep down I feel, it is really not a matter of what you do (to have or not to have a relationship - that is the question!) but rather how you do it. Where do you stand in it - from true love or selfish love? So I guess I search the middle ground - there is a purpose for a man and a woman to get together, I sense. But on the other hand the ordinary love relationships I find around me seem to lack real depth and meaning, are shallow and selfish. My question is whether a "love relationship" can really be meaningful, full of true love, an actual expression and outpouring of that divine love that each of the partner may feel, may help the other feel, and that ultimate transcends the individual or the couple (or the world!).

So, I wonder...

In my own relationship, albeit recent, we already have our little issues and insecurities exposed (probably this is agood sign actually!), and they are all connected with - do I REALLY love her? Does she REALLY love me? She is afraid I don't love her enough. I am afraid I don't love her enough. But in my whole of life I was aware that love is not really what the majority of people say it is, and I know that this girl also, deep down, knows this as well because we talk about it. Still, fears and insecurities surface sometimes, sometimes they are really deep rooted...

On the other hand there is the will and the faith and the vision (are not these the exact same reasons one starts to meditate or in a spiritual quest?). The vision that this (the relationship) can be a good thing. That this can help us both grow. that this can be a source and nurture ground for love, real love. After all, I don;t believe things happen for no reason, I sense a certain magic in life and I don;t think we came together out of total randomness. But still...

Now the question is - will both of us be in the same page and have the same will? I know I am willing to find out at least... We do talk a and think and feel a lot about it...

Thanks again.

[YogaIsLife]

I was checking some passages of the book online and some reviews and it looks interesting...I think I'll give it a try...maybe just what I needed! thanks!

[Goddessinside]

Hi YIL,

I understand your doubts, fear, questions..
What I can say from my experience, especially my last relationship, is that you must be aware that if you don't "jump" in it with both your feet, it will be lukewarm and centered around the mind and all its rationalizations, which is the biggest enemy of Love.
I remember that when we first met my ex and me, we both shared loud our fear to get attached to eachother.. it was a big risk..
We were both interested in the same things, in spirituality, healthy food and way of life, art, etc.
Everything was looking so perfect! We both couldn't believe that we were so much close.. We used to spend hours (up to 12!) together in a bedroom, just chatting, listening to eachother silence.. we spent many months like that without knowing what boredom was..
So, basically, there was a risk to take! Nothing was guaranteed..
Now, of course, if both of you share the same interest or longing for God and spiritual matters, it could be a very enriching and deep adventure that could help you support eachother and grow together..
This, I was blessed to experience it.. And believe me, there was more bad and hard moments than good ones, but the good moments were soooo intense and deep that I always tried to let go about the bad things...
Sure it's much easier and safe to go through life alone, celibate..
but I think we miss a lot by not giving a chance, at least once, to really engage in a deep intimate relationship.
And you're right, we don't meet by mistake with the other..
That's for sure! I learned so many things..
My ex and I were basically very different from eachother, I mean we had almost opposite personnalities, and it was all the most challenging to deal with those differences..
Now, our story ended in a sad and painful way (at least for me..)
It's not that we decided to leave eachother, nothing was said officially.. it happened gradually.. and I just realized many things that were missing for me to be happy and fullfilled..
That pushed me more towards my inner work. There was hard moments, yes, but today, I'm more mature, thanks to all the ups and downs I went through.
Concerning Osho, don't worry: my mind sometimes rebells against some of his words.. especially concerning relationships and freedom.
But in fact, when I say to my mind to shut up and have a wider vision, deep inside, I know that Osho talks the truth.
It's all about true Love, the one and unique Love that is unconditional and flows from within, undependent of the outside..
To reach this rare Love, it takes a lot of work and surrender.. how?
Through meditation.. this is the only way.. It doesn't mean that we have to wait until then, refusing any opportunity to relate..
But at least, as we progress along the path, we become more and more aware of our true needs, and this way, we avoid falling in the same mistakes and patterns..
At the end, we all do mistakes.. this is how we learn and grow.
So, it's good to ask yourself some questions, to reflect upon your true needs and desires.. but keep in mind that freedom is essential for both of you, as unique individuals..
Whenever this freedom is not fully respected, Love is not unconditional and true..
And Love and Hate are 2 sides of the same coin..
Love is a dialectic, it's not horizontal.. it has peaks and valleys, light and darkness.. this is the beauty of It.

I wish you to always be tuned to your heart; to never compromise for any reason because your freedom is essential to your growth.
As Khalil Gebran says, a couple is like 2 columns supporting the same roof of a temple..

..Love..

[YogaIsLife]

Hi Goddess, thanks again.

 

quote:I wish you to always be tuned to your heart; to never compromise for any reason because your freedom is essential to your growth.

Don't worry about this! Actually, this is the problem - I sometimes sense that I must look 'cold-hearted' to my partners, it may seem I never truly give myself to them, because deep down what I treasure the most is the love and freedom I feel inside, and that's what I want more of. I wonder if this is illusion, although it does not feel as such. But it is this that scares (and in the beggining attracts) partners. I must learn to show more care for others maybe, and less enthusiasm for my own search...

So it is not a problem of becoming attached to the other, is the problem of the other person not becoming attached to me. The unselfish true love that is so hard to find. I cannot say, of course, that I'll never become attached, it might happen, but I am so close to the seeking of my own truth, the truth in me, that it seems to drive me (not me driving myself) to more and more freedom, not more and more attachment. I can't make her understand this as it may sound like I don't love her to her...strange hein? I know what I want and what I would like to have with her but to her she feels the most important part is missing - me truly loving/wanting her. Maybe I am incapable of giving that kind of love because I feel it is not real! It is a need, it is selfish love. Of course I love her (what is there not to love) but not in an attached way. Does not mean I will be running around with other women, not at all! It is just that in her eyes it may look that I don't care enough and she wants to brake up because she says she cannot sleep or study anymore. But it is not my fault at all! I feel it is her sense of need! But how can I explain this to her without hurting her? Seems like a game/strategy, this whole love-thing...I feel previous generations had at least easier, more practical views - marriage for family.

The thing is that then I do stupid things like being "too honest". I feel sometimes a distance from my partner (do to my own inner voice) and I say it to her and she feels hurt, of course. It does not mean that I don't love her but I can't help but being honest when a certain emotion arises! If we can't be totally honest, what is the point, no? Am I missing something important?

Our problem is that we are far away from each other, in different countries, hours by plane away. I like this girl and she likes me, that is not the problem. Is that she feels I don't give her enough stability or show love. It is tough. And recently I went there for just a few days and I noticed how things changed by being around her - all my doubts came creeping in after a while, etc and that is what seperated us...I just don't understand it. Honestly. The problem was sex I feel. It is very important to her and maybe not so much to me anymore. Why? I don't know. So I felt I forced it once just before leaving and I told her. She was hurt, of course. she thinks that if someone does not want to have sex with her once that he is rejecting her and does not love her...bad...

That is why I ask: what are love relationships REALLY based on? Sex? Children? Maybe so. Or fear. Maybe we have to face the facts and move on. Decide what we want and be practical about it. I truly don't know. I wish my heart was more clear about it. On the other hand maybe it is being. I feel so calm inside...unusual...

But she also helped me so much in opening myself...maybe I am too focused on my own self...

Bottom line: I don't know. For the first time in my life it actually feels liberating to find out that I don't know.

[Goddessinside]

Hi YIL,

you know what I think? I think you are blessed but don't realize it!
Nothing is wrong with you..
It is her problem: she needs to feel supported and desired by you because IN FACT, she doesn't know how to support and love HERSELF first!
You know what? I just thank you, really, thanks.. coz by replying to you, I'm seeing your friend as myself, some months ago..
Yes, saying the truth, the truth of what you really feels at each moment, THIS gona hurt her.. why? Simply because she knows, consciously or unconsciously, that what is hurting her is not you, it's that she is not enough to herself, she is not independent; her happiness depends on the outside..
Of course you will attracts and at the same time frighten girls around you.. cause a person who is centered, who places his/her inner truth above all, this person will have a fragrance, a charisma, a certain stability that will attract those who lack those qualities.. it's so obvious!
Now, if sex doesn't seem appealing to you that much, again, see it as a blessing! (here, I invite you again to read the book I told you about: Osho answers a guy about the same feeling as yours)..
So, please, don't worry to hurt other people by saying your truth..
Never compromise.. just be yourself! If they feel hurt, it shows simply that what you said just hit something inside of them that they refuse to face..

Thank you YIL..

[YogaIsLife]

Well, thank you Goddess! I am glad I could have been of service . Tahnk you so much for sharing.

It is a complicated thing. Don't know if it's a blessing but I have just something that seems to drive me, and it is becoming stronger now that I meditate I think.

But still, I know nothing of this kind of love...

Me and this girl were talking about this over the net (messenger - funny how sometimes through a chat we can maybe communicate better - we have to listen and think before writing ). As the conversation progressed she asked me why I said I like her. I told her all the reasons I thought - that she helps me grow, she was sensitive, inteligent, pretty, feminine...She told me those are not reasons to love anybody. That love has no reasons, one just knows, just feels it. I think you wrote that in another thread Goddess. I think that is true. Then later I wrote something like "Maybe I don't love you enough, like you say, but I am willing to try and I want to do it with you". Then she accepted. She said I was being honest then and she could see that. And if I wanted to try then that was enough. She says she herself was not feeling open enough towards me in the beggining but that changed so that can happen to me as well. We also talked about Real Love and ordinary love and I think I finnaly got the courage to tell her what I seek, how I see things, how true love (truth) may shatter all the misconceptions and preconceptios we have about life (including ordinary selfish love)...it seems she understood....I hope....

I was quite happy but still not sure about this whole business of love relationships...now she called me and she says I am also right. I am confused...she says she understands that real universal love and that indeed a couple, throughout the years is bound to not always have that passion between them, that raging "love", but that indeed, she feels, all the other things (empathy, friendship, etc.) are important also. It seems she is a person who has loved a lot, very deeply and passionately. I feel (and I told her) she had loved for the sake of love and she did not realised it. I said it because she loved her past lovers very very much (I believe her) but she has resolved all the love and attraction she felt for them and no longer feels anything like that towards them. I found that strange...That for me means only one thing - the object of attraction and love changes, the quest for the feeling continues. That's what we all want right? Real Love. I feel I know what it is and how to find it. I just wish that a companionship with a woman can be a helper, not an impediment. The journey is about to begin! Hopefully, with the help of the inner guide we will find our way towards a more open and real love that lives in each of us and our relationship can be an expression and nurture ground for that. No one knows but god...

I just don't want dependency in a relationship. Illusion. More ego and such. I guess I want communion, companionship maybe, maybe a family and service and the traditional "happy moments". But not so much attachment or ego-feeding etc. Is it possible? Seems hard but at the same time something worth trying...I'll keep listening to my heart (have no choice it seems really!)

Maybe you are right, maybe I am also making her have to face certain conditionings. It seems so. But I also have mine and maybe she can help me overcome mine. As long as we don't get attached to each other...impossible?

Yes, your book from Osho seems very interesting. I am sure I will be amazed at some of his ideas and can't take it all too seriously but, as you say, there is definitely a resonance of truth in Osho's words.

And now I shut up. Hope this thread does not sound like me babbling about my love relationship problems...deep down I feel there is a real question here. A question concerned with the quest for truth and real love and how that affects our "love relationships".

Thanks for engaging in this conversation Goddess. I am really happy you benefited a little for it.

[CarsonZi]

You've read "Real Love" by Greg Baer right YIL?

[YogaIsLife]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

You've read "Real Love" by Greg Baer right YIL?

Actually not Carson. I have been adviced (by reading your posts in the forum and others) and it's in my to-potentailly-buy list. Somehow I have a feeling I can guess what he says so I postponed it...I am afraid it is another one of those to-make-you-feel-good-even-if-it's-not-true kind of book...maybe I am wrong.

Do you think it can really help in this situation? What does the author actually say that could be relevant here? What is the relationship (pardon the redundancy!) between love relationships and True Love? How does one have an harmonious loving relationship AND still be independent enough to seek the truth? How does that seeking affect both partners?

Man, Yogani said once he maybe could potentially one day write books on "Marriage and Yoga", "Career and Yoga", etc. At the time I thought it was kind of silly...now, I would love to have a manual on marriage and yoga!! hehehehe how things change...I guess I am taking Yoga more seriously as I can see it can really change one's life...it's the real thing man!

[CarsonZi]

Hi YIL,

quote:Originally posted by YogaIsLife

Actually not Carson. I have been adviced (by reading your posts in the forum and others) and it's in my to-potentailly-buy list. Somehow I have a feeling I can guess what he says so I postponed it...I am afraid it is another one of those to-make-you-feel-good-even-if-it's-not-true kind of book...maybe I am wrong.

Yeah it's not really a make you feel good sort of book like you are thinking.  It gives you some instructions on how to find (or create) Real Love.

quote:Originally posted by YogaIsLife

Do you think it can really help in this situation?

Yes.

quote:Originally posted by YogaIsLife

What does the author actually say that could be relevant here?

Too much to write here.  I suggest picking up the book if you feel inclined.

quote:Originally posted by YogaIsLife

What is the relationship (pardon the redundancy!) between love relationships and True Love? How does one have an harmonious loving relationship AND still be independent enough to seek the truth? How does that seeking affect both partners?

Real Love doesn't differentiate between relationships.  Friendship, relationship, maternal relationship, they are all the same and all abide by the "rules" of Real Love.

quote:Originally posted by YogaIsLife

Man, Yogani said once he maybe could potentially one day write books on "Marriage and Yoga", "Career and Yoga", etc. At the time I thought it was kind of silly...now, I would love to have a manual on marriage and yoga!! hehehehe how things change...I guess I am taking Yoga more seriously as I can see it can really change one's life...it's the real thing man!

The real thing indeed!  I agree.  It is truly amazing how Yoga can catalyze change in ones life isn't it.  Hurray for Yoga and hurray for Yogani for providing us with such a concise and efficient system!  Hurray for life in general![]

Love,
Carson[^]